Just Show Up: Finding Grace in the Midst of Doubt

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom.

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0:00:22.6 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome to the season finale of Grace at the Fray. We’re cutting this season short because we at Serge are getting ready to celebrate the Serge Company Conference, the biggest party that happens every four years. It’s where all of our field workers from around the world gather in Spain for a week in late May to reconnect and celebrate how God has been working in our little portion of His Kingdom. And when I say that this is a huge celebration, I mean there will be over 800 folks in attendance: field workers, their families, our home office staff, volunteers from supporting churches who’ve made serving our field workers their short-term trip.  It’s a week of worship and fellowship and prayer and collaboration. And I am super excited for this. So please keep this in your prayers. Pray for our travel. Pray for the amazing folks who spent well over the last year in preparing for this. Pray that the Spirit of God would move in really amazing ways. Anyway, that’s why this is the last episode of the season. But don’t worry, we’ll be back in September with more episodes exploring how God renews us in freedom and grace as we follow Him on mission. And today’s episode is another great example of how renewal and mission go together. This episode is all about doubt. It’s a classic story. A believer goes over to share the good news of the gospel, but in the going, discovers their own disbelief. And they lean into that through prayer and dependence on Jesus. They discover that God is not surprised.

In fact, this is where God’s grace abounds. Sometimes the way a Christian is cured of their doubts is by going, showing up where God has called them, showing up with their doubts. My guest today is a dear friend of mine named Tommy. By the way, he’s the one who wrote the Grace at the Fray theme music. He’s been in London for a couple years, and I got a chance to sit down with him and hear how it’s been. We have a saying here at Serge: Going on the mission field is like throwing Miracle-Gro on your sins. Well, Tommy offers a variation on that idea. Going on the mission field is like throwing Miracle-Gro on your doubts. And doubt is a huge topic for me. I’ve struggled with it for most of my adult life. So this conversation with Tommy was really helpful, a great reminder of God’s gracious invitation. It’s the story of doubting Thomas. You remember the story from John 20. The disciples told Thomas that they’d seen Jesus, the resurrected Savior. But he said, “Unless I see the mark of nails in His hands and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in His side, I will not believe.” And a week later, the disciples are again in the house, and Thomas was with them. And Jesus appears and He says, “Peace be with you.” And then He invites Thomas, “Put your finger here. See my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Don’t doubt, but believe.” And Thomas says, “My Lord and my God.” And Jesus says, “Have you believed because you’ve seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet come to believe.” I love this story. Do you see Jesus’ invitation? It’s the same invitation Jesus has for you, to just show up, show up with your doubts, and discover the love of God. 

 

0:03:38.3 Jim Lovelady: Well, Tommy, welcome. Welcome back to Grace at the Fray.

 

0:03:42.8 Tommy L: Thank you.

 

0:03:43.3 Jim Lovelady: Hey, so my bad. I don’t know if I told you, the first time we recorded a conversation prior to you leaving for London, it was an amazing conversation. We played songs together. It was the first Grace at the Fray sing-along.

 

0:03:56.9 Tommy L: It was a variety show. Yeah.

 

0:03:58.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s right. Song and dance. And then I taped over the audio when I filmed Rose Marie.

 

0:04:06.8 Tommy L: I feel like of all the people to tape over your podcast, that’s hard to beat. So, I’ll take it.

 

0:04:12.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. My bad. Sorry.

 

0:04:13.8 Tommy L: Hey.

 

0:04:14.3 Jim Lovelady: So I love that you’re here on HA so that we can finally lay this one down. And I promise you I will not… I mean, Lord willing, this is recording. All the buttons say record.

 

0:04:27.5 Tommy L: It looks right.

 

0:04:28.0 Jim Lovelady: So it looks good. But I want to hear… kind of the intention of that first episode that we filmed was, “Hey, what are you looking forward to?” And then in a few years, I’ll circle back with you and see how things have been. So, hey, who are you? How’s it been? All right. Ready, set, go.

 

0:04:45.3 Tommy L: I’m Tommy. I am a worker in London. My wife Lindsay and I serve there. We’ve been in the States for the last seven months getting married. We were not married when we were on the field. She’s been there for 12 years. I had only been there for about almost two years, coming on two years. And God did a really cool thing in our lives, brought us together, and I definitely married up. And yeah, that’s a funny thing around our company office. Everybody agrees with that. “You got the better end of that deal, man.” And yeah, so we’ve been on home assignment for the last six, seven months, having a wedding, getting to meet each other’s families, do some support raising, and reconnect with friends and family to be sent out again on Monday. And so, yeah, you’re right. We did this podcast…

 

0:05:34.0 Jim Lovelady: I mean, I got you in the nick of time.

 

0:05:35.3 Tommy L: You got me in the nick of time. Yeah. Thank you. This is really sweet. We did that podcast, what? Like two and a half…

 

0:05:40.1 Jim Lovelady: It was over two years ago. Yeah.

 

0:05:41.1 Tommy L: Over two years ago. And I feel like you were asking me questions about the journey process of getting to the field. Somebody who’s done… I did an internship in 2017 in North Africa and had been on some short-term trips, and I was just really gung ho to go over to London. And I feel like if I listened to that… If that audio somehow reappeared, I think I would probably cringe at some things. And I just wonder if it’s the grace of God that Rose Marie, her voice just covered a multitude of sins over that.

 

0:06:13.4 Jim Lovelady: I don’t know.

 

0:06:13.9 Tommy L: I don’t know. But I’m happy to be talking to you today, now. This feels like the right time.

 

0:06:21.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So how has it been? Two and a half years. I mean, apart from the glorious, celebratory reality that you went over to London and you came back with a wife. It’s pretty fantastic. And I debated whether or not to talk about how… It’s like the stories in… It wouldn’t be like the Hallmark Channel. It would be like the Angel Channel where people are like, “Seriously?” And it’s like, well, this is how the Lord chose to be good to y’all. And so that’s beautiful. And that’s been really fun to watch over the last… I don’t know how long ago it was. It was like, “Oh, what are we watching here? What are we watching develop?” And just that beautiful thing and then the huge party that the wedding celebration was and all of that. That was fantastic. Okay. So there’s that. But talk to me about all the other stuff. Talk to me about what it’s been like this two and a half years to be doing cross-cultural ministry.

 

0:07:30.2 Tommy L: Totally.

 

0:07:30.8 Jim Lovelady: And give me some of the nuances of what you’ve learned over the past two and a half years.

 

0:07:34.7 Tommy L: Oh, man. Yeah. I guess for a little context, I was working at a church that we both have a long history at, New Life Dresher, right here in PA, not far from Jenkintown, before I had that call to move over to London. And that was the place where I discovered that God could use me in ministry. I think I had a lot of years… I think you and I relate. We’re both musicians and kind of more right-brained, artsy-brained. And I think I always felt in college that all my friends who want to be doctors or pastors who are going to seminary right after college, like, God has a calling for these people. And I’m just the weird child, the black sheep, who I feel like wherever I go, it’s not a great fit, not a perfect fit. And I’m always wishing, hoping for this thing and wishing God would just give me this direction from the sky and then being frustrated and depressed that He never does. And so it was in that depression, doubt season of my life where I wound up moving back to Philly pretty empty, pretty like, “God, I don’t know if you forgot me or not.”

 

0:08:51.6 Jim Lovelady: Okay. I love that story because you’re like… I don’t know if you texted me or called me from the hotel after you had opened for Chris Tomlin at Red Rocks. And you were like, “This isn’t what the Lord wants for me.” And I was like, “Are you sure? That sounds pretty…” And it’s like, that’s fantastic. And that kind of experience of being a musician led you to that, but still it was like, “Nah, this isn’t it.” And so I loved that you’re like, “Yeah. I’m in a hotel. I’m moving back to Philly.”

 

0:09:33.3 Tommy L: Right. Well, woke up in a cot in a hotel room with my parents the next day and went back to Philly. But wow, I’ve really come down. But it’s funny because that’s a moment where it’s like, oh, for a kid who wanted to be a professional musician and just play gigs his whole life, for there to be peace in that moment of like, “Hey, I’m getting to play at this place that I dreamed about playing.” I used to watch YouTube videos of U2 playing there in the ’80s at Red Rocks. And I got to do that. And yet there is a peace in a sense that, “Lord, this is not what you have for me.” That was a pretty radical… I think I look back to that moment in life, and that’s a reminder to me that God does have good things for me. He is steering my life, whether I feel like He is or not.

 

0:10:22.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:10:23.1 Tommy L: And that’s kind of the theme of even as I tell you about the last two years, I think there’s absolutely this theme of I bring in a lot of doubt that God cares about me, let alone the world and other people. And we talk about how Christ is renewing all things, and that’s the joy of the resurrection. And because there’s an empty tomb, that’s a big deal. Like you had Matt on your podcast talking about like, how does an empty tomb shape our theology? That Jesus is making all things new, everything that is sad and broken. And so that’s just something that I feel is hardwired in my psyche and my heart. It’s like, that’s too good to be true.

 

0:11:05.7 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:11:06.9 Tommy L: And so when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of life, whether it’s discovering calling, vocation, who should I date or marry, or does God have good things for me? My default is to run for the gutter. And that’s how I was coming back to Philadelphia and wound up, I’ll just cut a long story short, wound up taking a class at a seminary here, Missio Seminary. One day a week, I’d drive down on Monday afternoons, and I would just cry in the car on the way down because I was like, “God, I can’t believe that you had something for me, that you had a group of people to learn about something with, and that I get to come home every Monday night being excited about who you are and what you’re doing.”

 

0:11:56.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And what you’re doing in this world.

 

0:11:58.3 Tommy L: After the season that I had had living in Nashville playing music, that was this weekly reminder that God is better than I think He is, that He’s more real than I think He is. And that wound up leading to a job opening at New Life Dresher, leading worship and doing some youth ministry. And that was kind of this continuation of like, “God, I have no idea why You would want to use or work through somebody like me. I don’t feel like I have the wisdom or the secret spiritual special sauce to offer something to somebody else. And yet I feel like You keep inviting me.” And I think all of those years of struggling that I had in Nashville about vocation and calling, I can look back now and see I think the Lord has been inviting me to be part of what He’s doing for a long time. And I just don’t feel like I deserve to come over. I don’t feel like I deserve to accept that invitation. And so honestly, that is exactly what led me to London. Went over on a short-term trip with the youth of New Life Dresher. And we’re sharing the gospel with strangers on the street, passing out pamphlets and flyers and inconveniencing people and making fools of ourselves. And as a youth leader, I just assumed, “Okay. I need to be the one who is the most comfortable with what is happening right now. I need to be the one who clearly feels like he’s made for this and enjoys this the most if I’m going to lead this group of students.” And I just felt like a big fraud. I was like, “I shouldn’t be doing this.” I don’t have, again, it’s that I don’t have that spiritual mojo or this wisdom or this confidence or this belief or I haven’t read my Bible every single morning for the last month and therefore I’m just oozing the Holy Spirit, so like, I have nothing to offer anyone.

 

0:14:04.9 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:14:05.1 Tommy L: And after a week of doing that in the city in London, I just felt like I kept bumping up against my cynicism, my doubt, and this fraud feeling.

 

0:14:18.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. The imposter syndrome.

 

0:14:20.0 Tommy L: That like, no way I belong here.

 

0:14:22.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:14:22.5 Tommy L: Yeah. And I’m telling this person words, I’ve inconvenienced them, I’ve interrupted their day, I’ve interrupted their walk to work or to the store or to get lunch. And they’re often coming from a totally different religious background. And I feel like, “Whoa, am I even like… Is this even kind to be doing what I’m doing right now?” And to tell you this, what we call good news, I think I just became really confronted with, “I really need to believe in my heart that this is good news to not feel like a fraud saying this to you.” And maybe I’m not sure. “Uh oh, what if I don’t?”

 

0:15:06.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:15:06.3 Tommy L: “What if I don’t believe that this is really the best news?” And that whole week on that short-term trip, you’re seeing other workers, hearing them talk about how the gospel is the best news in the world. And they say it so boldly, unashamedly, they’re smiling, and you can tell that, oh man, this person believes that. Ultimately, this is kind of what led me to London and to move there, was a week of feeling like a total fraud and an unbelieving loser, and getting a call from a local pastor there, being asked to step in really last minute to lead worship…

 

0:15:44.8 Jim Lovelady: Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:15:45.7 Tommy L: At this evening service of a church of people from a totally different part of the world than I am familiar with or understand, who are worshiping in that room, often at a great cost. There’s just a cost that they have to follow Jesus that I know that I’ll never know.

 

0:16:04.3 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:16:04.7 Tommy L: Losing family, losing social status, everything. And I’m asked to lead worship in a language that I don’t speak. I think the only reason I said yes was because it had just been a week of feeling like a total fraud anyway. So it’s kind of like, hey…

 

0:16:20.2 Jim Lovelady: You want one more.

 

0:16:21.3 Tommy L: What’s one more thing? Put it on the tab. Thanks, Lord. I mean, you know this because you’re a worship leader. There’s like a special connection that you get to have with brothers and sisters in Jesus when you get to see everybody’s faces all at once. Similar to a wedding when you’re up there with your bride and you’re seeing this great cloud of witnesses who’ve walked with you. And that week, we had heard some different stories, testimonies, and so I’m looking at this room of people who I don’t really know, but I know some stories, and I know that they’re probably similar among men and women and children and families. And in that moment, we’re singing, I remember we were singing a really cheesy late ’80s, early ’90s worship song that I’m like, as a worship leader at New Life and a young adult, I’m like, “This is what drives people away from the gospel.”

 

0:17:19.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. My kids would be like, “That’s totally cringe, Dad.”

 

0:17:25.6 Tommy L: “It’s totally cringe.”

 

0:17:26.6 Jim Lovelady: Cheugy is another word I’ve heard the Gen Zs use.

 

0:17:29.5 Tommy L: I don’t know. I don’t know. And we’re playing this song. It’s half in another language and half in English. And I’m just hearing this tiny room that is full of people, and it’s just like one of those rooms where the… It’s a really old church building, and so the walls are echoey, and so sound just really bounces. And I remember just looking at the faces and the eyes of these people. Most of their eyes are closed, their hands are up, they’re singing as loud… It’s the loudest room that I had been in in years. This is right after the pandemic. People are singing with masks on. I’m in a larger suburban church with a carpeted ceiling, and so you can imagine what that sounded like. And to go from that to being in this room and hearing and seeing people who have tasted the love of Jesus in such a real way that they are singing and proclaiming their love and their faith and their trust in Him as their Savior in the most loud, full, vibrant, beautiful way at a cost that I can only imagine what it cost. And I just kind of had this experience of… I felt like the Lord just parted the clouds a little bit for me in that moment. And He just let me see a little bit of His glory. And it was like He was saying, “Tommy, do you see? Do you see how much I love the world? Do you see how much I love my people? Do you see how I am not only enough for this room of people, but how I am good enough and kind enough to call people from all nations, tongues, and tribes from circumstances that if you saw them written on paper, you’d be like, ‘There’s no way anybody in that spot would ever want to believe in Jesus.’ There’s no way that there is something good enough or true enough or beautiful enough about who Jesus is that they would leave those circumstances to follow Him.” And I’m looking at this room of people being like, “Oh, Lord, I want that. And is it true, maybe, that you love me that much? That the things that you could write about my life and who I am on a piece of paper, that you’d want that? You want me?” And that just wrecked… That disrupted my life. It disrupted the story that I’d been living in, the narrative that I’d been living in. It disrupted that doubt that we started talking about that has always been there.

 

0:20:23.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:20:24.3 Tommy L: And I think for the first time in my life, I started to… You know how people talk about doubting your doubts?

 

0:20:30.7 Jim Lovelady: Yep.

 

0:20:31.4 Tommy L: I think that’s when that started for me. And I started to even wrestle with just sin in my life differently. I started to wrestle with a real hope that Jesus is so much more beautiful and better than anything else that my heart wants. And so whatever happens, I’m just going to get right back up and go follow Him. And that really disrupted my life when I got home. So much so that I was just like, Lord, I want more of that. And I know that you’re doing it in this one place in London. And so I’d be a fool to not just reach out and ask you, is there any chance I could come? Is there any chance I could come with you there, that you’d really want to take me with you?

 

0:21:22.0 Jim Lovelady: Would you take an imposter? Would you take an imposter with you?

 

0:21:23.9 Tommy L: Yeah, would you take an imposter? Is it too late to say yes to an invitation that you’ve maybe been throwing my way for a long time?

 

0:21:30.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:21:32.2 Tommy L: And thankfully it wasn’t.

 

0:21:33.2 Jim Lovelady: I love that story because there’s the wrestling with doubt, and the imposter syndrome stuff is just kind of always there. And when I texted you, “Hey, what do you want to talk about?” You were like, “Let’s talk about how going on the field is like pouring Miracle-Gro on your doubt.” And so I love that doubt, it really is kind of like everywhere you go, there you are. And there’s this doubt thing that’s going to go with me. There’s this imposter syndrome that’s going to go with me. And Jesus is not intimidated by those realities. And so I want to hear you talk about what’s the wrestling with your doubt? What has that looked like specifically over the last two years or so regarding what ministry has looked like?

 

0:22:29.3 Tommy L: Yeah. I think that is a thing that I would love to tell two-and-a-half-years-ago Tommy. Like, hey, that struggle, that doubt that you feel, it doesn’t go away. Similar to when we talk about sanctification and when we have a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus and we have the Holy Spirit, that we don’t start to see less of our sin and just be these holy statues that are pleasing to God. Really what happens is we start to see more and more of, oh, there’s a lot of scared, fearful, rebellious, and yucky parts of my soul.

 

0:23:13.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:23:15.8 Tommy L: And then in turn, that’s the cross chart. That we’re also seeing that… I mean, the hope is that we’d also see that… And yet the grace of Jesus is more, yet His mercy is more. And so I think the same thing applies to doubt, and that’s maybe something that I’ve been learning.

 

0:23:36.7 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for our teams in Spain. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that You would bless these folks as they do their work in the freedom of Christ. Grow them in hope and love for You as they give You their fears and doubts. Give them joy in their work in Your Kingdom and the pleasure of Your joy as they follow You. Give them wisdom and let Your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, and with the people that they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved, protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness, restore to them the joy of Your salvation, and let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in these places, just as it is in Heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now back to the conversation.

 

0:24:40.5 Tommy L: I went over to the field feeling like I’ve had this kind of big experience, what felt like this life-changing experience on a short-term trip where it changed the trajectory of my life and my relationship with God. And I get there and it was messier than I thought. I think when you go on a short-term trip anywhere, to a degree, things are cleaned up a certain amount and it’s geared towards this group of people coming. And everybody is excited, and I think that’s awesome. I think it’s so worth doing. But living somewhere, living in a different culture, a people group that you don’t know a lot about, and serving alongside a group of people who probably all have different ideas about what the best way to love is. And I say that with these are people who are some of my closest friends, we all have different ideas about what the best way to do ministry is, what the best way to love is. And I just found that, man, I came in with this excitement and maybe also this belief that, “Okay. Now that I’ve tasted the glory of God, I’m pretty sure I understand how this thing works. And I have a lot to offer.”

 

0:26:08.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh, for a moment, the imposter syndrome goes away.

 

0:26:11.5 Tommy L: Yes. Right.

 

0:26:12.6 Jim Lovelady: Because it’s so funny how we always kind of pile up these things that we can look to so that we can know, oh, I’m okay. How do I know I’m okay? Oh, well, I got this pile of stuff over here that is my reminder that I’m okay. I’ve got my education, I’ve got my experience, I got all my stories that I could tell. Like, in a pinch, oh, I could talk about this or that, and, oh, I know what to do in this situation. Oh, sweet. I don’t feel like an idiot anymore. I don’t feel like an imposter anymore. Okay. Sweet. Now I’m ready to go. Now I’m ready.

 

0:26:48.4 Tommy L: But isn’t it funny, though, how we can get to that place of freedom in Jesus, and then how easy it is to go, well, I’m going to go be an imposter over here now? Rather than be like, Jesus, You are the one who is making all things new. You are the one who has the power to change somebody’s heart. You are the one who understands and knows all things, even when it seems so confusing to me. That knowing that Jesus, my natural inclination, and I feel like all of our natural inclinations is to, like, okay, I understand something. I can change something. I can fix something, and then go live out of that. I want to be like a professional ministry person, and there are certain attributes that I feel like I should have and certain things I feel like, well, I’ve worked at a church this long. I feel like I’ve earned that. I feel like I’ve earned that right.

 

0:27:46.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. 

 

0:27:46.8 Tommy L: And I think I just realized I came in just almost like on a different kind of imposter of, like, all right, so now I can put this costume on because I feel a little bit better about maybe the condition of my heart. And I think what I found is that living in that, you start to feel the same way. You start to feel just as yucky. And yeah. When you’re working with, my experience of the last two years is I’ve gotten to work with a group of Americans from kind of all different parts of America. And it’s a group of people who started to feel like family to me, who I have just loved enjoying to know and serve alongside. And yet, I’ve just experienced the daily, weekly life of church planting in a demographic and in a setting that is just kind of foreign to all of us. And how easy it is to want to feel like I am the one who can make all things new in a way.

 

0:28:56.5 Jim Lovelady: Exactly. So the overarching issue is about… The overarching doubt is, I don’t believe that You are making all things new. I don’t believe that You can make all things new. So I guess I gotta.

 

0:29:12.4 Tommy L: Yeah. Yeah. And from talking to other workers, I feel like I’ve heard similar stories of your first couple months on the field kind of feeling aimless and kind of pathetic because the gifts that you thought you had to bring to the table to offer actually maybe weren’t exactly what is needed or required or what’s really going to help the team or the church that you’re serving at. And you kind of feel like, well, anybody could be doing this.

 

0:29:45.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:29:46.5 Tommy L: God, why’d You call me here? Do I…

 

0:29:48.6 Jim Lovelady: Well, that’s a helpful expectation to lay out there. Like, hey, don’t be surprised that you’re going to go over thinking that you’re going to serve within the realm of your gifts, your gift set or whatever that feels like, oh, man, this is the most that I can give to the Kingdom. Oh, man, I cannot wait to give toward the work of the Kingdom in these ways that the Lord blessed me with these gifts. And I love that the Lord blessed me with these gifts, and I can’t wait to participate with Jesus in the realm of these gifts. And Jesus is like, well, we’re not going to do those things.

 

0:30:27.1 Tommy L: Right. Right. Okay. I feel like that’s the crux of it. That is the thing that if you played me back the audio from two and a half years ago that I would cringe at. Because I feel like I came in with, here are the ways that I can offer a lot. And maybe I didn’t talk like that. Maybe I present more humble than that, but I think that’s where my heart was coming in. And okay, well, if those aren’t the ways that I’m called or asked to love or serve, like, Lord, can You really use me? Is it really worth… Are You doing something in this community and in this church that is so beautiful and so good that it really has nothing to do with what I’m bringing to the table? And when I feel like… When I’m being stretched and pulled to do ministry and love people in ways that feel unnatural to me, or for a basketball analogy, like I’m dribbling with my left hand. Or even the… I came in excited to lead worship and to play music and to train musicians. And I’ve learned that, oh, singing to a room of people who speak one language, and I speak another language, and I’m trying to lead them in their language, I don’t do it as well as I’d like. I don’t seem professional. I’m not even good at this. Like, Lord, what are You doing? And how on earth could You be working when I feel like such a fraud or such a loser in all these different areas? And I found that that unbelief that I had before kind of crept back in of, like, God, I’m not offering a lot, so You must not be doing anything. And just from talking to friends and brothers and sisters over there who I serve with, I know that they wrestle with the same thing.

 

0:32:28.1 Jim Lovelady: So it’s kind of like the experience of seeing God work in your own life isn’t really there. What about the experience of seeing God work in the lives of other people? What about that?

 

0:32:41.7 Tommy L: Yeah. That’s the crazy thing about all this is the best moments in the last two years have been seeing God work in somebody’s life. And I feel like I might have had little or nothing to do with that. And maybe my team might have had little or nothing to do with that. Or we’re doing ministry that we feel like is important and is joyful to do. But the moments that really stick out to me are those ones where you’re either doing the same thing week in and week out and you feel like, man, nothing is happening. Like, why are we doing this thing? And then you have somebody says something to you. Maybe it was a student. I can think of an example of a student at a youth club that I was helping run. And we’ve had a year of just doing this club, and this girl came faithfully every week. We started with zero students. We put a table outside of our church saying, we’re starting a youth club. The building we were running it out of, right across from a school. So all these students are walking by, most of them are laughing. This is the cheesiest looking thing. What’s this weird group of Americans doing standing in this parking lot with…

 

0:33:58.6 Jim Lovelady: Cringe, dad.

 

0:33:59.6 Tommy L: With cringe. We’re cringe, we’re cheugy. And I felt like almost every student passed us totally by. We’re like, oh, what if we offer potato chips? We’ll throw out snacks to kids, just get to know the students in this neighborhood. And I think a couple boys came up and just took the whole box and ran away with it. It’s like, this is not going well. And after everybody had passed and I didn’t think that any more students were coming out of this school and would walk by our sign, walk by our little table, a mom walks up with her daughter, doesn’t really speak English, so the daughter has to translate, and was just looking for something fun for her daughter to do after school on Fridays. Somehow, through the language barrier, gets a feel for what we’re doing there and trusts us enough to let her daughter come play here for two hours this Friday afternoon. She was a new student at the school and was feeling really nervous to be part of the school and wanted to make friends. And so this girl eventually stays at our club and calls her sister on the phone, who’s on a bus home from another school. “Oh, come to our club.” And so these girls are here with some other students for the better part of a year. And I remember there was one week where I just asked the kids, “What’s been your favorite part of coming to club these last couple months?” And in my heart, what I’m bringing to that question is, we’ve been slogging away at this club, we’ve been sharing the gospel, feels like we’ve been pouring ourselves out, and it just doesn’t… Is this doing anything? Are we wasting our time? Do we need a better strategy than this? Because this doesn’t seem to be doing anything.

 

0:35:48.0 Jim Lovelady: This isn’t tickling my American need to have something to show for myself.

 

0:35:52.5 Tommy L: Right. Or feel important. And I will never forget, this girl shared, “Well, my favorite thing about club this last year has been the stories that we get to hear about Jesus and how He loves us and died on a cross because He loved us.” And I don’t know that this girl has a saving faith in Jesus yet, but just to hear somebody say that who is from a part of the world where you would think there’s no earthly reason why you would want anything to do with…

 

0:36:40.1 Jim Lovelady: It’s kind of the last answer you expected.

 

0:36:41.5 Tommy L: It’s kind of the last thing I expected. I expected snacks, games, or maybe just, “This club is boring.” That would have been like…

 

0:36:50.6 Jim Lovelady: “My mom makes me come.”

 

0:36:52.3 Tommy L: Yeah. “My mom makes me go.” That’s what I was ready for. And this girl isn’t a goody-two-shoes kind of girl. She speaks her mind. And I think just to hear that our clumsily and fumbling through stories about Jesus, it wasn’t about the way that we shared the story of Jesus each week. I think it was about that Jesus is so real and so beautiful that no matter how clumsily a person like me or one of my friends shares about Him, He’s so beautiful that our hearts are wired to find Him beautiful. And I was seeing that, the glory of Jesus was bouncing off of this girl and I was getting to see it.

 

0:37:41.3 Jim Lovelady: Smacking you in the face.

 

0:37:42.8 Tommy L: Yes. And I didn’t feel like I did anything except show up.

 

0:37:50.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:37:50.5 Tommy L: And I think that is probably the theme of the last two years is those moments of seeing the glory of God have not come from feeling like I’m doing something really well, feeling like one of my friends is doing something really well, or we figured out the ministry strategy that is just, “This is the way to do it to achieve this result.” It’s actually been showing up and leaving your house when you don’t feel like anything is happening and feeling like a fraud and showing up and seeing that Jesus is real and that the tomb is empty and that He’s on the move and that He’s doing something. And I wish I could say that that is the theme that has shaped how I have lived my life the last two years. But I think that’s really the… That’s the work that God has been doing in my own heart the last two years.

 

0:38:55.2 Jim Lovelady: I love how the culture of Serge with our field workers is not to sit down with them and hear how they’ve suddenly, even through great suffering or whatever, have gotten things figured out. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard any one of our field workers be like, “Oh yeah, here’s the silver bullet,” or, “Here’s what will work.” It’s just never about what they figured out. It’s about, “I just showed up.” I mean, really, that is… I don’t know. If you did a word search on all the transcripts of the podcast, how many times one of our field workers said, “I just showed up,” it’s all over the place. And what I think is beautiful about this is with my doubts, not even just putting the doubts to the side, or with my imposter syndrome, not having fixed that, it’s with all of those things, within the brokenness of who I am as a person and all of my doubts, Jesus just keeps showing up saying, “Hey, doubting Thomas, I get it. But you can touch my wounded side.”

 

0:40:10.3 Tommy L: That invitation still stands.

 

0:40:11.9 Jim Lovelady: “You can touch my wounded hands. I will grab your hand and I will put it into my nail-scarred hands,” through a young woman who you would never have expected that a young woman would be the one who would be this conduit, this catalyst for you to encounter the living God who is wounded for you, who invites you into the intimacy of, “No, I’m real. Touch me. I’m real.” I love it. So how do you translate that to someone who isn’t necessarily working cross-cultural in ministry? Maybe they’re not even in professional ministry, all the air quotes everywhere. How do you translate that to the life of, “Today I’m going to be faithful”? What does faithfulness look like today?

 

0:41:00.2 Tommy L: Right. I think that’s a great question. That’s something I’m asking. Okay. I think there’s two parts to this. One, I think we need to know and believe that there is an invitation from God to see and behold that He’s making all things new. That Revelation 21 isn’t only talking about this far distant future in the end times and that it has nothing to do with me today when I get out of bed. And I think I spent too many years in my life not really believing that that invitation was there. And so…

 

0:41:42.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. It’s not, “See, I will make all things new.” It’s, “See, I am making.” And what I’m saying is trustworthy and true, or is it…

 

0:41:48.7 Tommy L: Yeah. Is it Mark 1:14-15? The Kingdom of God is at hand now. And so, yes, it’s this future reality, but it’s breaking in right now and Jesus has come to declare that. And this is good news. And so, one, I think for the person who’s not in ministry or in an overseas work or whatever kind of ministry vocation, I think because the invitation stands, we are all in a ministry vocation in one sense.

 

0:42:17.8 Jim Lovelady: Right. That’s right.

 

0:42:18.7 Tommy L: But the invitation stands for all of God’s people. It stands for everyone and everybody is invited. And I think that is incredible. Two, if I’m just speaking from my own wrestling and struggling with doubt and cynicism. I’m so cynical about everything that has to do with Jesus by nature. And if I could just speak from my experience the last two years, my encouragement would just be, just keep showing up. Come with your unbelief. Come with your doubt. And don’t hide it. Don’t try to pretend that you believe more than you actually do. Don’t try to pretend that you are less cynical than you really are. But tell that to Jesus. Tell him how cynical you are, how unbelieving you are, how far you feel from Him and then walk to wherever you need to be. And with maybe 0.01 amount of belief that He might show up and do something. I just don’t think that as we do that, that we will go home the same or empty-handed. And I know that is a scary way to live your life because you have no control over that. It feels like you’re saying, “God, anything good in my life and worthwhile is going to come from you. And I have no control over when or how I get that or not, or how I see it or when I see it.” But I’m going to show up because of who You are, not because of who I am. And who You are is the God of the universe who’s making all things new. And who I am is Your child, who You love. And the same way that a child doesn’t do anything to get what he needs as an infant from his parents. He just exists. He shows up. And you get to see your father work. And I think it’s a beautiful way to live, and it’s something that I just feel like is so hardwired, ingrained in me to not be the way I want to live.

 

0:44:25.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:44:25.6 Tommy L: I want to contribute. I want to be worth it. I want to be able to have something good in my life and be able to see it and say, “I earned that.” And I just don’t think that that’s how God works. And something I feel like I’m learning from living where I live and being in the context that I am and even getting to talk to workers, some of whom you’ve had on this podcast, who have been doing this longer than me, is that the people who are seasoned and who have lasted in their field, or maybe any vocation for that matter, as Christians are the ones who are used to showing up with nothing and asking God to do something. And I want to be more like that.

 

0:45:16.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Sanctification is growing more comfortable with that reality. Because that’s the reality. The reality is we all are imposters. Sorry, you can’t wiggle out of that. “Do I really belong?” Well, actually, turns out because Jesus is alive, it’s not a great question. Not anymore. When you’re faced with the question, “Do I belong here?” it’s a quick, “Kind of not really.” And then, “But here you are because this is where I want you to be.” Move past that question into the glory of… settle into the invitation that Jesus loves you and wants you to see His glory in this way. One thing you may not remember from that first conversation that we had that was taped over is you had a longing to see the beauty of the Lord. And that’s still there. And you don’t fake that. I don’t think anybody can conjure up a desire to see beauty.

 

0:46:23.8 Tommy L: No.

 

0:46:24.5 Jim Lovelady: To long for beauty. It’s innate. And so once you see something beautiful, you resonate with that. And so as you’re talking, there’s this sense of, “I don’t know that I believe here, here, and here.” I’m learning to doubt those doubts. Or one of my favorite life-changing conversations that I had with my kindergarten daughter was when we were walking to school one day. And we’re holding hands and she looks up and she goes, “Daddy, I don’t know if I believe in Jesus.” And it’s like, “Oh, no. Oh, crap. What do I say to this?” And I said, “Yeah. Sometimes I feel the same way. And you know what I do? I just tell Him, ‘I’m having a hard time believing in You, Jesus.'” And she’s like… And off we go. But what she is doing is she is expressing a lack of confidence in her belief. And what I want to do is resonate with, “Yeah. I don’t really have so much confidence in my own belief.” I resonate with, if I look at, “How do I believe in my belief?” The answer is, “Not a good idea.” Or there’s not much to believe there. This is all the belief I have, and it’s not much and it won’t even hold together. It’s just kind of crumbly. And Jesus is like, “I know that you don’t believe in your belief.” But you love to see something beautiful. So look at me and you will see what you actually believe. So deeper, deeper, deeper than those doubts is this, you resonating with the beautiful. Resonating with the beautiful one, when He goes, “Just keep looking for me. You will find me.”

 

0:48:18.2 Tommy L: I think you’re right on. I think that’s the invitation. The invitation is to believe when you don’t feel like you believe in your own belief.

 

0:48:24.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:48:24.9 Tommy L: And that’s something that like I want to know the joy of saying yes to that more and more. I think the most… So that moment with your kindergarten daughter, I think a similar moment for me is actually another worker at our company, he’s served for years and years and years overseas. And I remember when I was in high school and I was just admiring this guy who chose to live his life this way, he and his wife. And thinking, “What? This is so bizarre that you’re choosing to live where you live, that you’re choosing to live the way that you live, and you have this faith and this articulation of who Jesus is that makes you cry a lot.” And I don’t understand that, but I want it and I’m curious. At that time, I’m asking all these questions of, “What am I supposed to do with my life?” And so I remember talking to him about that and saying, “How did you get this way?” And I remember him saying to me, “I just said yes to God a lot. And I reached a point in my life where I just kind of doubted my doubts enough to just say yes and keep saying yes and showing up, not really knowing the rest of the story. And God has done some beautiful, beautiful things with that.” And so I think that’s where I am. And that’s, to your original question of what about what we’re talking about, about belief and unbelief and cynicism, how does that change the way that you get out of bed in the morning, whether you’re working in ministry or not, or you’re working in Africa or not? I think that there is great hope in saying yes to who Jesus is when you might not have that belief inside of you that day. Honestly, Jim, that’s why I think worship is important because of that. I was listening to a podcast this last week with my wife from… It was like an interview of a prominent worship leader in kind of the broader evangelical world. And the question was, “Hey, why do you write so many songs about the power and the beauty and the majesty and the above-ness of God, rather than write songs about more personal struggle, lament, or testimonies, more specific lyrics?” And I just really loved the way this artist answered and was talking about, it’s not that those things aren’t important, the full spectrum of emotions in worship songs are in the Psalms. But I think that when you are feeling depressed, when you are feeling alone, when you’re feeling burnout, when you’re feeling like nothing that I do matters, it’s not necessarily something that you conjure up or who you are in that moment that lifts you out of that. It’s actually that God is this above and this powerful and this beautiful that sort of changes the way that you and I interact with those doubts and those fears and those voices that we hear every day. And I just really loved that like, oh, here’s a person who is writing worship songs and leads worship every week, and that’s kind of their mission statement is Jesus is beautiful enough and good enough and real enough and holy enough to meet anybody wherever they are all the time.

 

0:51:57.8 Jim Lovelady: You’re right.

 

0:51:59.7 Tommy L: And so even when I craft a worship set on a Sunday, my hope is that maybe this song doesn’t connect with this person, but somewhere in that stream of songs in a worship service, that you will find the part of who God is that lifts your eyes and that allows you to just say yes to that invitation that’s there. And I just thought that was really profound. And I think that’s why we need worship.

 

0:52:23.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. When our heart condemns us, there’s someone greater than our hearts.

 

0:52:27.1 Tommy L: Yeah.

 

0:52:27.7 Jim Lovelady: And He knows all things. All right. Last question.

 

0:52:31.0 Tommy L: Yeah.

 

0:52:31.3 Jim Lovelady: I think I asked you this two and a half years ago. What are your hopes for the next couple years?

 

0:52:38.9 Tommy L: Yeah. See, you’re asking a cynical person, “What are your hopes?”

 

0:52:42.9 Jim Lovelady: I know. That’s right.

 

0:52:46.5 Tommy L: And I just hate you right now. I’m mad at you.

 

0:52:49.5 Jim Lovelady: Excellent.

 

0:52:52.9 Tommy L: Yeah. I think there are a variety of ways that I am tempted to answer that, whether it’s finishing a seminary degree overseas, whether it’s just having the best marriage ever, or just seeing the church plant that I’m part of or a ministry that I’m involved in just blow up and thrive. And while I think all those things would be great, yeah, I think at the end of the day, I am hoping to see more of how beautiful Jesus is. And I want to see Him show up in all those areas with people and friends and relationships from unreached people groups like we talk about. I want to see the glory of God in them. I am looking forward to more years of saying yes to the invitation that Jesus is real and good and that He loves me and that He loves the people around me. And I think what I’m looking forward to is reentering into the mundane parts of my life and the things that happen every week on a ministry team in London that can start to feel stale after a while. And I’m excited to go back and ask for help to say yes. Like, Lord, show me. Show me who you are. Show me what you’re doing. Show me that what Jesus did on the cross is changing everything right now. And that You and I are in the midst of and headed towards a really glorious eternity. And that because of that, the mundane things that we do actually are really significant and are really special. And I think I want to be brought to a place of worship in that.

 

0:55:06.7 Jim Lovelady: So this verse has been on my mind ever since you texted me what you wanted to talk about. 1 Corinthians 15 is the great resurrection chapter. It’s 58 verses long. 57 verses of resurrection. 57 verses of resurrection. And then you finally get in verse 58, the “therefore,” and so it’s like, “Therefore, my beloved, therefore, my beloved Tommy and the whole team, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor is not in vain.” Since Jesus is alive, 57 verses of resurrection, therefore, go have fun. So, I hope you have fun.

 

0:55:51.3 Tommy L: Hey, thanks.

 

0:55:52.1 Jim Lovelady: Thanks for hanging out.

 

0:55:53.2 Tommy L: Thanks for hanging out.

 

0:56:00.4 Jim Lovelady: Maybe every conversation about doubt really needs to end with a conversation about hope. “Why are you downcast, O my soul? Put your hope in the Lord, for yet again I will praise Him.” I’m always surprised at the answer to that ongoing question in my heart, “God, is your grace sufficient for my doubts?” My conversations of prayer look something like this. The Lord says, “I want you to go declare the gospel to that person.” And I go, “I don’t know if I really believe the gospel.” And the Lord says, “That’s why I want you to go.” And it’s in the going that I discover a deeper faith, a greater sense of God’s love, and a responsive love for Him. And in all of that, the Lord gives me hope even in the midst of my doubts, all because I’m just willing to show up. If you have your Grace at the Fray bingo card out, you could have stamped this spot that says “just show up” many times in this episode. And I feel like someone always says it in almost every episode. It seems to be a key component to the Christian life. Just show up. Bring your doubts with you. Just show up and discover God’s love. Showing up is always about responding to the immediate call of love that God has on your life. The reality of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection means you’ve been freed to love because you’re deeply loved. You’re not alone. You’re not abandoned. You’re not left to yourself. You are free to show the love of Christ wherever He calls you to just show up. Sometimes showing up means responding to the needs that you see. So I want you to know about a need that we have here at Serge and invite you to participate with us by giving toward the recruiting needs of Serge. We’re in our end of the fiscal year giving campaign called Impact a Generation. Your gift will mobilize more young people, more people like Tommy, to bring the gospel to people in need all over the world. Your gift to Impact a Generation will be doubled until the fiscal year end on May 31st. So go to give.serge.org and get your gift doubled. And if you’re feeling the nudge from the Holy Spirit that maybe it’s time for you to join the field, go to serge.org and start exploring where and how God wants you to just show up. And while you’re browsing the website, go check out the new merch store. I’m so excited about that. Links to all of these things and more can be found in the show notes both in your podcast app and on YouTube. And don’t forget to like and subscribe for more content from the ministry of Serge. And of course, it’s the season finale. I want to thank the Grace at the Fray podcast production team: Ashlie, Rachel, Hudson, Grace, Tim, Evan, and Anna. Y’all are so amazing. Thank you so much for your creativity and your hard work. I’m honored to work with you. Now as you go, remember, the Lord loves you and He sends you with His blessing to show the love of Christ to a world in desperate need of generous friends. So may the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you, turn His bright eyes to you, and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting. Amen.

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