Counting the Cost of Following Jesus

Jim Lovelady: 0:03

Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom. 

Hello, beloved, welcome to Grace at the Fray. Wherever you are and whatever you’re up to today, if you’re in need of a good dose of grace and you’re looking for stories of how other people are experiencing God’s grace at the frayed edges of their life the messy, broken edges of their life you’re in the right place. So there are a number of stories in the gospels about how Jesus conveys the need to “count the cost, you know, if you’re going to really follow Him. In Luke 9, we see three individuals who are interested in following Jesus, but they have a bunch of they have a bunch of excuses. They have a bunch of reasons why they can’t follow Him. And then in Luke 14, there’s a parable of the folks invited to the wedding feast, but they all have their own sorts of excuses. And then the parable about the man who he needs to count the cost of materials if he’s going to build a tower. And then there’s the one, the parable about the king who has to count the cost before he goes to war. And then of course there’s the parable in Matthew 13 of the guy who discovers a treasure in the field and he sells everything he owns so that he can buy the field. And then, right after that is the merchant who discovers a pearl of great price. So he sells everything he has in order to buy that. Now, these kinds of stories are important for me because I’m not a count the cost kind of guy. I’m the let’s go for it, let’s give it a shot kind of guy. I mean, I have been three quarters of the way into a long hike in the mountains when I ran out of water. Yeah, I’m that guy. So these stories slow me down. So I begin to evaluate what’s really important, what’s really required for the journey and, honestly, at the end of counting the cost I’m left with a feeling of desperation. I need God’s grace even to count the cost, much less follow Him. But you may be the kind of person who has no problem counting the cost. You know almost immediately how much it’s going to cost. In fact, you may suffer from analysis paralysis. Counting the cost may be your safe haven. That prevents you from the risk of actually following Jesus. Let’s just keep counting the cost and not actually get up and do something. You need a reminder of God’s grace too. Either way, this episode is for you, because you need God’s tender grace in order to count the cost. You need that same tender grace to actually get up and follow Jesus wherever he calls, wherever he calls you to participate in His Kingdom. My guest today is my friend Lindsay, who lives in London. She’s been living and working in London with our company for the last 12 years and we sat down to discuss some of the common barriers to following Jesus cross-culturally. She shares stories of how she’s counted the cost of following Jesus and how, in that, she’s experienced his grace in some profound and really beautiful ways. As you count the cost of following Jesus in the moments of this day, today, what kind of grace is required for you to participate with him in the restoration of all things?

Jim Lovelady: 3:49

Well, Lindsay, welcome to Grace at the Fray.

Lindsay Hall: 3:52

Thanks so much, Jim. It’s good to be back. It’s been a minute.

Jim Lovelady: 3:58

You win the prize for having the most recorded podcasts that have never been released.

Lindsay Hall: 4:04

Oh my goodness, wow.

Jim Lovelady: 4:07

I was thinking about this because, because, like two years ago, before my trip to London, you and I had a conversation that I recorded, not intending it to be a podcast, but it was a fantastic. It turned out to be a fantastic conversation but, due to a lot of reasons, cutting room floor. And then when I went to London, you, you and I, we, we hung out, you took me around to some of the places and we just filmed a couple conversations that were really, really cool that conversation in the mall and yeah, all that stuff right, cutting room floor. Um, and then what was it? A couple weeks ago we had this conversation, but my, I had thrown my back out and I was in major. I was just in such pain and you, you had such compassion

Lindsay Hall: 5:00

Oh, you should release it then. I want to sound compassionate.

Jim Lovelady: 5:05

Well, here’s your, here’s your opportunity now. That’s right. Yeah, Lindsay has compassion. It’s a miracle. Yeah, I was listening to it and I was like listening to my voice and how I I kind of talk like this, just holding, just holding it together.

Lindsay Hall: 5:26

I was feeling for you. I was like that poor man is asking me some deep questions and I can tell his back is just hurting. So I’m glad we can. We can have the second conversation and maybe there are more things that maybe I said, some things I shouldn’t have said, and this is a chance to like clean it up. Yeah.

Jim Lovelady: 5:47

Yeah, so hey, welcome to Lindsay 2.0. So I’m really looking forward to hearing you talk about the last 12 years of your life has been with Serge, doing ministry in London, and I want to hear you talk about what it has meant to count the cost, and I want to hear your story, of course, of how you arrived at London, at London.

Lindsay Hall: 6:11

They don’t say that here.

Jim Lovelady: 6:15

Yeah, they don’t say that in English. They don’t say that in English. So so, yeah, I want to hear your story. But then I’ve been reading this book called Mobilizing Gen Z and they talk about some of the reasons why folks have an aversion to going overseas to do mission work, to to do cross-cultural ministry. However you want to articulate that and we’ll actually get into that. But I want to list these off right now and then I want to hear your story and then I’m going to just walk us through, cause I’d love to hear your perspective on all of these things. So here’s what they are Reasons why folks are hesitant to go on the mission field. The first one is financial concerns instability over low paying and finding meaningful work, student debt and pressures of finding financial success. The second one is sacrifice and risk aversion. So I want to hear you talk about concerns about safety and financial provision and FOMO and like missing out on personal as well as career opportunities.

And then you know, sprinkle in some loneliness and anxiety. So that’s the second one. The third one is struggles with sin. Like a significant barrier for folks is just persistent sin and feeling either feeling disqualified, self-disqualified, or actually being disqualified because of persistent sin, and, yeah, just a sense of unworthiness to do this, this kind of work. And then the desire for immediate gratification, which is like growing up in a digital age. It’s shaped us for like quick results. So mission work, you know, just isn’t a quick results kind of kind of work. And then the last one is lack of spiritual training. Folks lack this deep training in spiritual disciplines and even just a personal encounter with God and in such a way that makes this kind of work meaningful. So folks may feel ill-equipped or unmotivated to do this kind of work. So those are the things like, those are a lot of things, that’s a lot of stuff, and so I’m looking forward to

Lindsay Hall: 8:20

Let’s go.

Jim Lovelady: 8:22

Let’s do this. So, yeah, start, start with tell me some of your story

Lindsay Hall: 8:26

Yeah, first of all, welcome to London. We’re in my my little office stroke guest room, which is can tell many stories of just people being with me here, which is really cool, and just as I’m even talking with you, I’m sitting here thinking of all the stories that every person who comes into your home can tell and just how I never saw myself as a person being able to host so many different people, to get to know so many different stories, is such a gift and I think about when I arrived in London. My story here is is. I want to think it’s unique. I think we’re all our stories are unique, but I think I have one that is quite similar to a lot of people in that, you know, I grew up in a family that loved Jesus.

That talked about, you know, loving other people, sharing the best news in the world with people. That wasn’t a foreign concept to me. I put my faith in the Lord when I was six years old. It was very real. I remember weeping with my mom just saying you know, I have a problem with God and I have a barrier. I was six years old. I didn’t know how to do algebra, but I knew that I had a problem with the Maker of heaven and earth. You know and I still don’t know how to do algebra, by the way, but I know it’s overrated, just kidding.

Jim Lovelady: 9:39

Especially algebra II.

Lindsay Hall: 9:41

Oh yeah.

Jim Lovelady: 9:42

We’ll be starting

Lindsay Hall: 9:46

Lindsay 3.0.

Jim Lovelady: 9:46

That’s right.

Lindsay Hall: 9:47

So, yeah, I had a concept of the world that God made it and I grew up in an area that was pretty culturally diverse but still overwhelmingly a lot like me, had similar worldviews like me, and it wasn’t until later in my life, after going through quite a season of some anxiety, and I think what now I look back, is everyone is anxious when they’re a teenager. I think mine was a little amplified, but having an opportunity to see more of the world when I was in university. So I was a softball player, that was my life, that was my platform from ages 5 to 21. That’s how I spent the majority of my time. That’s what I knew I was good at. Sports was something that made sense to me, even in anxious times in my life, and so when I was in university playing softball, I had the opportunity to go overseas on my first cross-cultural trip and, like many people this is where I think my story is very similar to a lot of people that was the first time that I saw the world differently. I went to. I was in Southeast Asia. I was in Thailand playing softball. It wasn’t that I was seeing physical poverty, I did see that I saw glimpses of it, but what I really saw was, for the first time in my life, spiritual poverty because of a lack of knowing the God of the universe and access to knowing Him. It wasn’t that people were. People were beautiful. I mean, it was one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been, some of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen and yet I could see it was like God opened my eyes to see. Like Lindsay, there are people in this world who are beautiful, who don’t know me, and it’s not that they just don’t know me, it’s that no one’s ever told them. And that trip I was 20 years old and I remember being like everything just changed. I remember telling the gospel using my softball glove, which kind of goes like this I had a glove I don’t have one near me right now but I said what is this? And you know my Thai is not very good, so I had a translator. I wish I could say it was really good. I said what is this? And they said a glove. And I said yeah, like what’s the point of a glove? And they said to catch a ball. I threw my glove on the floor or on this dirt field in the middle of nowhere. This is not like a big city. This is nowhere ville. I threw my ball at it and I said did it fulfill its purpose and they said no. And I said You’re right. And I picked up the glove and I said you know this glove? To you it’s a dirty piece of leather. To me it’s beautiful. I love this glove, this glove. I remember when I got it. I can think of times I’ve gotten to make amazing catches and plays with this glove. When I put my hand inside this glove it means something to me. It’s not this gross piece of leather that’s stinky, because it was a little stinky. And I said you know, that is what our lives are like. We have purpose and we have a there is a reason you are here. But until you know what that is, your life really doesn’t. It doesn’t make sense, like why do you get up in the morning? Why do you do what you do? When God comes in, when Jesus himself comes and lives in your heart because you acknowledge you’re a sinner and you acknowledge that you need to be saved and the only one who can save you is God himself by sending of his son, Jesus. Like that changes your life. Now I said it a lot more condensed than that, but I remember being in this place. I have a picture of it somewhere. It was like as if the heavens opened and I’ve never had moments like this. This is like God didn’t owe me this. He would have still been amazing and if he hadn’t done this, but it was like I could sense His Spirit just saying how can you tell all these people how much I love them when you don’t believe me, how much I love you? And it’s almost like He had to bring me around the world to get my attention to say are you going to trust me, are you going to follow me? Are you going to, are you going to be with me? Because I got plans, girl, let’s, let’s go. And it was from there that my life really changed at 20. You can ask a lot of people. I had a new vision. I really was convinced that that I would be doing sports. I thought that was my thing. I think a lot of humans we want to do what we’re good at. We like to go where we make sense, where things are not as difficult for us, and for me that was sports that made sense.

Lindsay Hall: 14:01

It’s a long story, really, but the gist of it is this I ended up moving to a country where no one gives a darn about softball. No one cares at all. It means nothing that I do that or did that. I haven’t played softball in probably 15 years. It is not my platform, and the moment I laid that down with Jesus I’ve had the most wild and fun adventure and hard and difficult and painful 12 years of my life, living in a place that doesn’t care about my platform, and I wouldn’t trade a minute of it. Well, maybe a few minutes, but I wouldn’t trade the overarching story that God has written here, which is my identity, is not that I was a softball player. It’s actually that I’m a child of the King and He’s used things I didn’t think he would for His glory and my good, and softball wasn’t one of those things here. So there’s a lot of minor mini stories in there, but that’s kind of where we’re at in terms of thought of be doing one thing and I’m so not doing that. But I am telling people about Jesus and that’s what I love.

Jim Lovelady: 15:08

Yeah, yeah. So the the the last 12 years, has been ups and downs, filled with all sorts of glory and all sorts of suffering and and tragedy and hardship and and like it’s all intermingled. So if you were, if you were going to be talking to you’re talking to someone who’s like hey, I’m really thinking about doing this. Just from your story I’m hearing things like yeah, I went over in in just a short little trip changed everything. You know.

Lindsay Hall: 15:38

Oh yeah

Jim Lovelady: 15:38

But then there’s also this okay, I’m excited about the idea and I have been changed, but here are my expectations, Lord. So, yeah, what would you say to someone who is thinking about going on the mission field and start let’s do the list start with. They say, well, I’ve got some financial concerns and I’m, I’ve, I’ve got some student debt and I’ve got, you know, I don’t know myriad of things that finances and I’ve got parents who have expectations for me financially. What would you say to that?

Lindsay Hall: 16:13

You know, I think those are really valid good things to think about. Like, debt is real and it does follow you. It’s not the goodness and mercy of God that follows you all the days of your life, but almost. You know a little bit of where I was coming from. So I went on that trip as a junior sorry, going into my junior year. So I was back, I was zealous, I was like I will send me Lord wherever I want to go back to Southeast Asia. I was trying to move mountains to make that happen immediately, well, after graduation. But the reality for me was I did have some student debt and that was because I chose to go somewhere that was more expensive and part of that was taking on some debt and I thought that was incredibly fair. Some people had totally worth it insane debt and I didn’t. I had some, and you know that could be a very different story for some people. But I had a little bit and I remember having kind of a choice before me of like I could really force my will for a good thing, which is to go and tell people about Jesus and bring that bit of debt with me, or I could think about what would it look like to like kind of graduate. Let this simmer a bit, let this desire to go simmer a bit, because I have never in my life not known what’s coming next. I think that was for me was like oh no, I need something immediately which there’s a lot of good in that too Like it could have been grad school, it could have been all these things, and I just knew I wanted to go overseas, and so that felt like the next logical thing and that could be the next logical thing. But for me God kind of orchestrated some things that I now look back and see as kindness, where there was an opportunity to work as an intern at my home church and to glean wisdom from other people who had served cross-culturally before, and then to work for a year doing some stuff in a local high school or middle school that I had gone to, to work with young people, teenagers that I didn’t ever really want to do, and in those two years one of the greatest blessings that God ever did for me was to help me pay off school. Now I say that knowing that that may not be possible for some people, but debt is real, and one of the most freeing things for me has been that as I went on the field, the goodness and mercy of Jesus followed me, but that didn’t follow me. So I would say to people who are thinking about the financial implications of going in a vocational work that, yeah, like you have to also like raise money. Like that is uncomfortable, especially when you’re like trying to just pay things off. Don’t let that be the thing that keeps you from going. One acknowledge it’s real. If you don’t act like it’s real, you’re in la-la land and I think you know be really honest about that. Like, look at your finances, look at how you live. Are you living within your means? Are you ready for like, managing money and managing you know giving back to God that which is His already and asking people to support you? I think like just having really honest conversations with the people around you, having conversations with God about this and with yourself. Like, are you good at managing money? Is this going to follow you? Is this going to be a thing that actually you get to the, you get overseas and then it actually takes you down because you just don’t have an idea how to manage? Again, I don’t know how to manage perfectly and God did some things and move some things around, but I think my encouragement would be like yeah, don’t hide from this, don’t let it be the ultimate thing. You may go on the field and have debt and that is absolutely normal and fine. It’s just are you in a place that you’ve really thought about where you are financially? Because it’s a thing and I’d say to people who are like, oh my goodness, like if I live a life of ministry or I go overseas, like I will live, I will have to live in a box. I will never be financially stable.

I think, like any job, you learn how to live. You learn if you’re willing, and the thing that has blessed me the most is knowing that all the things, all the finances that come and it was a painful lesson for me to learn later in my life, but it is all God’s and giving, giving is actually one of the greatest blessings of my life to give back to God which is his. And learning that even cross, like as a worker overseas, one of the greatest blessings of my life is to give, is to give, and so there’s no reason that you go into this life and if you can learn and let God teach you and let others teach you and how to be wise with money, I just don’t. That shouldn’t be a reason that it holds you back. You can still learn how to manage and save and give, most importantly, give. So, yeah, any job you go into, you’re going to have to learn how to manage money period Right, and this one you will too, and you can do that because God is good.

Jim Lovelady: 21:38

Yeah, I love how everything that you’re saying is just kind of steeped in wisdom, because it’s like neither this nor that is of any value but faith working itself out in love, and so it’s like neither being in debt nor not being in debt is of any value when it’s faith working itself out in love, and so having debt could be detrimental. If you’re not wise, you won’t know how to do it. Not having debt, maybe that’s detrimental. You know, I can’t imagine that one, but still, who knows what is wise for every person and how support raising and and even learning how to be generous with what we’ve been given you know I love all of that. It’s just like steeped in wisdom. So all right, so here’s. Here’s the next one: sacrifice and risk aversion. That’s a big one. This is a big one. You know, what am I going to be giving up? You know, speaking of financial, the things that I’m going to be giving up. I could have a wonderful job working at this or that, but I’m going to be giving that up, or giving up personal relationship opportunities, all of those things you know. You and I were talking about how I did an interview with Dan Macha and he talked about is following Jesus safe? No, following Jesus is not safe. Well, you’re telling people who are very risk averse and have seen and experienced a globalized world where they understand the dangers that are happening on the other side of the world, and they’re seeing it on their newsfeed. It’s just overwhelming, and so anxiety is off the charts. I’m anxious and you want me to go there, like just it’s too risky, you know. And then you have parents. Like I was talking to Michelle Hopping about how a lot of her parents, a lot of parents, are talking to her saying is it safe for my, for my kid that I have raised and helped help get them through college, etc. Is it safe, is it? Why? Is it really wise? So talk to me about the, the risk aversion, and is it worth the risk?

Lindsay Hall: 23:49

I think about my generation. I’m sounding old, 36. So I’m an 80s kid, 88, you know, when I think about the time where I was growing up and formulating thoughts and feelings and opinions, I mean just a lot of anxiety, like I think, as I think about people kind of in my age bracket. We’re nervous Nellies, but risk, it was a different kind of anxiety. It was the anxiety of identity and anxiety. And I can’t speak for all 88 babies, you know, 80s kids, but I will say like there’s a the risk, the fears were really different and as I’ve been, as I’ve been overseas and I’ve, you know, gotten to have a lot of different people of different ages, I have, I have felt a shift, a bit of like, fear of safety and that’s that’s so legit, like. I think think I was always the fear of like is it going to be uncomfortable? Wasn’t always the thing that drove me. It was more like are people going to really find out that I’m like blah? You know that I don’t really know what I’m doing. It was more like it’s just a lot about me. Again. Can’t speak that for everybody, but it was just different so it’s sometimes hard for me to identify with. It will be uncomfortable. I just assumed following Jesus would be incredibly uncomfortable. I was like, you know, I just kind of assumed that, but I brought my stuff with it. And that’s not to shame anyone, to say that the world has changed, like we know now more about what’s going on than we ever did, and that can be incredibly alarming. And so maybe if I was thinking about this, if I was 24, how old I was when I moved here, what I know now I’d be like uh, what Are? you serious? So your question about like, is it worth it? You know, thinking about risk aversion, to me it really comes down to have you. I think about the parable of the pearl. Is it the pearl of? I’m messing up my parable.

Jim Lovelady: 25:48

The pearl of great price.

Lindsay Hall: 25:49

Yeah, the pearl of great price. Like, when you know what you have, you’re like I’ll sell the lot. Like I know what I’ve got, I know I know who my Jesus is. And so for those of us who are wrestling with, like, should I do this? Is it worth it? And it makes me emotional.

Just thinking about it is like, do you know the depth of God’s love for you? Like, do you know how much He loves you? And is He nudging you to consider that there are people in the world who don’t know that and there are people in your neighborhood who don’t know that, wherever you may live. But once you know and you’ve seen and you’ve tasted the depth of His love for you, I would just ask you, like, what are you afraid of? Like, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid he’s not going to be there for you? Like, are you afraid that He’s going to lead you to a place and watch you suffer and die and not be with you? Are you afraid that he’s going to lead you off a cliff for His own pleasure? My word to you would be look at your life? where has He forsaken you? When has he ever left you in a place where you were like that He wasn’t good to me. Why would He stop? Like, why would He stop being good to you? Is my response to someone. Like, is it worth it? Sometimes it doesn’t feel like it is when everything’s falling apart around you, but you feel the same way if you’re in your home context and the same thing’s happening. Is He worth it, is He good? And so, yeah, I think, in the moments where I I have looked and I’ve thought is this, what am I doing? Like, why have I done this? Parents, why would you send your children grandparents, why would you release your grandkids? Like it is foolishness if the tomb was, if Jesus still laid in the tomb, but He’s not, like He rose. And so, yeah, is it going to be painful? Absolutely. Are we all called to go to the ends of the earth? I don’t know. Are we all called to be witnesses? Yes, are we all called to go? I don’t know. Not necessarily. Someone’s got to stay back and take care of what’s going on in our home and what’s going on. But is He good? Is He going to provide? Is He going to be near you as we share with the sufferings of Jesus? Like, are you, do you want to know Jesus more? Follow Him, Again. That’s not the right. Like this kind of following is not necessarily the right is what he’s calling all of us to to let go and send. But if that is the thing that’s holding you back from what is clearly God moving, I would say when has He ever forsaken you? When has He ever let you down? When has He ever asked us to do something He wasn’t willing to do? And for me, I can just, and for my parents and those who love me deeply, who it comes at a deep cost, a deep cost, and I think parents and grandparents and brothers and sisters and aunties and uncles get lost in the cost. I think we just look at the person who goes and we can put them on a pedestal. No, like some of the most real cost is those who send, and so I would say the same thing to them when has He not been faithful to you? Will you let Him be faithful to you in this? If God is clearly calling. So there’s a thousand reasons not to go and there’s one empty tomb that says it’s good, let’s go. That’s what I would say.

Jim Lovelady: 29:37

I’m going to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we here at the headquarters in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for our teams in West London. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks, give them joy in their work in Your Kingdom and the pleasure of Your joy as they follow You. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, and with the people they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved, protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness, restore to them the joy of Your salvation and let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in these places just as it is in heaven. We pray in Your name, amen. Now back to the conversation.

Jim Lovelady: 30:36

It is a good segue into this third one, which is you know this, yeah, but what about my struggles with sin? What about my brokenness? What about the persistent sins that I just can’t get over, and feeling disqualified and unworthy to do, to do this work? It’s loaded with all sorts of stuff, so unpack that.

Lindsay Hall: 31:01

Oh gosh, I mean, it’s the same thing. Like, my answer that I just gave you is the same. Do you really think God needs you to be perfect? Like he established that it’s not possible. He had to come and He had to live perfectly and die perfectly and rise perfectly. Expect to sin. Expect to struggle with sin. If anything like coming and laying down the comforts and maybe it’s not even just comforts all the time, it’s just the familiarity of how you can hide in your context, your home context, like that, to me, is the scariest thing about going overseas. You just don’t know what going is going to reveal.

Jim Lovelady: 31:46

Right.

Lindsay Hall: 31:47

And I think if you’re willing again, like daily, to say God, this is bad, here we are again, here we are again and I failed, like I don’t, it could be a whole host of things. Like, if someone’s listening to this podcast and they’re like, yeah, you’re not going to name the thing that I’m struggling with, I’m like what do you want to hear? Like, are you going to struggle with lust? Probably, if you struggle with things like porn and what you watch, are you going to struggle with that here, probably. Are you going to struggle with cussing, like I do? Probably? Are you going to struggle with anger, maybe, like attractions that you have to people. Like are you going to struggle, like, with sexual sin, probably. Like all these things like I just want to name, like some of the things that I think people just are like, oh, that’s too icky. I’m like there really isn’t, there really isn’t anything too icky for Jesus. Now I’ll say all those things and like, if you haven’t shared those with people, if you’re living in total darkness and hiding, it’s not going to go away. That’s what I would say. Is, if you’re trying to run from something which I think often we do, when we think about oh I’ve made such a mess here, my sin struggles are so deep here I’ll just go somewhere totally different and they don’t even speak my language, like literally don’t speak my language or they don’t understand me, I will look like everybody else, like then I will know it’s only going to get worse. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like my sin is too great, one, it’s not. And two, if you’re trying to run from it, the best thing you could ever do is just shine the little, we call it a torch in the UK, shine the little torch into the corner of the room, into the thing that’s so scary right now, and just say, okay, like, let’s look at it. So, yeah, you’re going to struggle with sin, it’s going to follow you, but the goodness and mercy of Jesus is so much bigger than that. So, yes, be responsible. Like seek, seek help, seek accountability, seek healing. Like it will follow you. It doesn’t define you, but you’re not helping yourself. You’re not helping the culture you’re going to, you’re not helping the team you’re joining XYZ wherever you fill it in. You’re not helping anybody by acting like it doesn’t exist. So rather, just get it out now. More stuff will come, don’t worry about that. You can deal with that when you get there. But the stuff that you’re like, God already knows. Right, I can assure you there’s nothing that you can say at this point. That people are going to go oh, I’ve never heard that before. I think that’s my generation, like that’s. One of the things I wrestled with was oh gosh, like no, there’s really nothing under the sun at this point that people are going to shudder at.

Jim Lovelady: 34:43

Right yeah.

Lindsay Hall: 34:45

And it may be that, because of that particular struggle, living cross-culturally isn’t the best thing for you, that maybe God isn’t leading you to that, but it doesn’t disqualify you from asking and maybe, down the road, like God’s going to do something and totally wreck your world and maybe you will end up overseas. It’s just there’s so much more to it than that. Yeah, I don’t want someone listening to hear that, like, whatever it is that is going on right here in between your ears right now, like just whatever sin you think is just too vast, like, stop. Talk to somebody about it. Let this be the voice that says go talk to somebody about it, they’re not going to freak out. If they freak out, then they’re wrong. Go talk to someone else.

Jim Lovelady: 35:30

Right, right, right. That’s what makes you know one of the things I love about Serge being a soft place for sinners to land, um, and because we all recognize how much of a mess we are and we’re, we just we’re in a culture where we’re just not surprised, you know, and it’s so encouraging to be in a in a culture of of folks who aren’t surprised that they’re a sinner and laugh at themselves a bit, at just how surprised they actually are, because you know, we still surprise ourselves with oh my gosh, I still struggle with that and oh my gosh, I can’t believe I… The other day here’s a great example I sinned against my wife and I talked to her afterwards and I was like I said Lori, I’m sorry, but. And I said but, and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit’s like stop talking. And I stopped talking right after the but and I really wish I didn’t say but. But then now I look back and I’m like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe. I said I’m sorry, but. There’s no buts. It’s just like I was wrong. I’m sorry, just stop it, I’m sorry. So maybe next time, maybe next time I won’t say but. Uh, and maybe next time it’ll be, I’m I’m sorry, I was wrong. So, like to this day that was a couple days ago I just laugh. Like I just have to, I just have to defend myself. It’s just still there and there it is. Oh my, oh my gosh. Yeah, that Jesus already knows and He loves you. It’s not Jesus already knows, but He loves you. It’s Jesus already knows and He loves you.

Lindsay Hall: 37:27

I think we struggle. I struggle to hear this and then He calls us to think like sometimes He loves you period and because He loves you as he reveals things, and if you get to really know Him, you don’t want to do those things anymore. So I think as I think about these things, Jim, another thing is like you will have to put in work.

Jim Lovelady: 37:48

Yeah.

Lindsay Hall: 37:49

Coming cross-culturally. You think you’re joining a team, you’re joining work. Whatever you fail to address, you’re going to bring with you and I think you need to really like, as you’re considering, you need to really think am I in a place where I really look this face and am I really ready, like, because you’re going to be joining other really broken, tired, worn out, joy filled and sorrow filled people who are going to love you but are also going to need you to point them to Jesus. So you’re coming to fix your problems. I’m sorry to say they’re not going away, but God is good and He and and He will walk with you in that. But take these things seriously. Love your love your future team well. Love your future culture that you will join well. By looking in the mirror and saying Lord, where are You working? What do I need to? What do I need to bring to You and work through.

Jim Lovelady: 39:00

Yeah. All right, here’s the fourth one. This is the whole desire for immediate gratification and how digital technology technology, I guess, in general has shaped us to where we have an aversion for the long road and even speaking to the expectations that missions is a long road.

Lindsay Hall: 39:24

I think a huge thing is like in the context that I’m in, it took me years, years, years to have real like deep friendships. Years. I didn’t mean I didn’t have friends along the way. The the beautiful thing in my context is I, for the most part, can speak English and in a lot of ways that puts the pressure on of like okay, like you’re here, like how are we going to? You, you need to meet people like, it has been. It’s been wild to me how hard or how foreign the idea of making friendships is anymore. Like when I moved here, I mean I had a dumb phone like I didn’t ever. I was lost all the time, like I never knew where I was. I, you know I got stories about that, . But like I didn’t have a smartphone I could have, I didn’t have one and I didn’t really rely on getting to know people. I didn’t know anyone. I moved here. I didn’t know a soul. I had spoken to some people on the phone, I knew I was running a team and I had to really rely on like making friends. I can see how today, if I had what I have now with a phone and access to people and FaceTime because I did have whatever. Anyways, I think I would struggle a lot more. But because I moved here, I was just, you know, two years out of university, where you have to I started all over again and I learned quickly like if you sit in your room like friends, I’ll just like come to your door Well, maybe in university, but that’s not real life. And if you want to cling to the friendships, to be everything that they were to you before you moved here, there’s a sweetness in that, but it’s not the same. But it’s not the same. And so if your only source of life and friendship is this, you will likely miss out on opportunities to get to know the people around you. Now, there’s a lot of caveats with that, like learning a new language makes that a layer difficult, varying on what culture and where…When I landed, I, where I was, was incredibly like I did not fit in any way shape or form. English was helpful, sort of not always like it just depends, I would say, if you’re willing to be like I’m going to be a good question asker, and I’m going to expect that nobody asks me about me. You’ll be great. My parents taught me that early days like and I love this they were like just you know, Lindsay, like people are lonely and the more you can expect that people aren’t going to ask you about yourself, the better. It makes it sweet. I mean, think about that. Don’t you just long for someone to ask you how you’re doing? Like? That’s probably why I won’t shut up in this podcast, is it’s just really fun to just think about what God’s doing and talk about it, and I spend a lot of time just listening.

Jim Lovelady: 42:36

That’s awesome.

Lindsay Hall: 42:36

So yeah, I would say could take. You might meet your best friend on day one, like how cool would that be? I, you probably won’t, but I’ve seen that happen before actually. But if you’re willing to put in the time and if you’re willing to say like I’m willing to learn and ask questions, you might have some really lonely weekends or whatever night. It is that struggle, but would you let, would you stare that fear in the face with God and say will you help me in those moments, like to not forget who I am? I think you will.

Jim Lovelady: 43:08

I love that, you, that you are talking about the depth of relationships that are possible in in life, because relationships are mediated through this technology. Now, you know, community is mediated through this technology and uh, and you’re going. Well, there’s a depth of relationship that requires a lot of work that this isn’t like. It kind of shortcuts it, and so, since it’s shortcutting it, you’re just not getting as robust a community and a sense of knowing and being known as you could All right. One more. This one’s about the lack of spiritual training and formation. The people that maybe this is kind of up there with, I feel disqualified because I didn’t go to Bible school or I didn’t go to seminary, or I didn’t, or I haven’t really been discipled in in in ways that cultivate this idea of living cross-culturally. So what do you say to that?

Lindsay Hall: 44:08

I mean, I think, something that my sending church that I love, I grew up in and I don’t know what the policies are anymore, but I had to fulfill a Bible certificate. Now I don’t have one right now because I did it across a bunch of different things, but I think there is a wisdom in like learning Bible, learning of who’s gone before you, like learning some theology, like looking at the values. I think there’s a balance. You don’t need to have your PhD, you don’t need to have your MDiv. You don’t like, depending on what maybe you do, you’re going to be a church planting pastor, but like I think I think there needs to be a middle ground. If you’re coming and you want to serve the Lord and His Kingdom and tell people about Him, like I think there is a responsibility that we need to know what does His Word say about Him. But then I think we can overdo it and be like I just want to learn everything. I need to be an expert in this religion or this thing. So then you get here and then you make it weird because you’re like no more than other people around you and there’s nothing more like awkward than being like well, actually I have my PhD in this thing studies, and they’re like yeah, you just lost me. So, yeah, I think that we should be learners of the Word. I think it’s good to to know, like what you believe in something, and also be like God. You may like know the, know the majors, major on the majors, and then let the Spirit lead you. Otherwise, I just think I think, don’t, it shouldn’t disqualify you that you don’t have some. You haven’t read every biography of you know, Hudson Taylor or whatever, but I think, yeah, read one like, listen to podcasts, like, but more importantly like, listen to God’s Word. People are going to be looking to you to like share about it, so learn some of it.

Jim Lovelady: 46:06

Yeah, think it’s. It’s always coming back to how surprised we are that God would use us, where we, where we are. You know, not, not. Hey, get get a seminary degree, then I can use you, or even you have an engineering degree and since it’s an engineering degree and not a Bible degree. You shouldn’t be a missionary it’s like no, that’s not how it works.

Lindsay Hall: 46:31

You know you know what I spent a lot of my time doing? I try to figure out Canva. You know how many stupid things I made on Canva that look bad a lot if you have a degree in like graphic design. I don’t know if you think that’s like not usable here, but it’s totally usable here. I spend a lot of time like doing things. I’m like I don’t know how to do this. Are you kidding me? I don’t know Like what. Someone has a degree in that? Great. You know how to like fix stuff? Great. Like economics? Awesome. You want to see wrong. You know justice. Come and people be treated fairly, praise the Lord. If every single person that comes overseas is just one thing. If everybody was a doctor, for example, that’s great. There’s some orgs that like you go and you be a doctor, praise the Lord. But that’s not what. That’s not what we’re all. We’re not all called to be doctors, and so I hope doctors have a medical degree. That would be a really good thing If you want to lead a…if you want to lead a church plant or you want to be a church planting pastor like I hope you have a degree in theology or pursuing one, it’s important If you want to come and you want to talk to people about Jesus. I hope you like read what Jesus has to say. All these things, like they all matter, but the one thing we have in common, whether you’re a doctor, a lawyer, whatever, a church planter, a youth worker our love of Jesus and who He is is central. So top up on that. As the British would say, let’s top up on our knowledge on who Jesus is and then let the other things come with that.

Jim Lovelady: 48:11

Nice. Yeah, all of these things are just steeped in gospel wisdom, like it’s not. It could be this, but it could be that you have to ask Jesus, you know, and then if, when you do, you’re going to start to experience life with Jesus, when you do, you know. So keep talking to Him, keep talking to Him. I love that. Okay, so you’ve unpacked all of these and with like just a tone of grace and wisdom that I really appreciate, and I guess that the answer you’ve already given the answer to the question, but I want to hear you answer it again has, 12 years on the field, been worth it?

Lindsay Hall: 48:54

Oh yeah, not even a question in my mind. Tears, hardship, conflict, trauma, joy like deep joy, friendships, like what else would I want to do? Like seriously, I cannot think of something else that can have all that mixed in in my life, and particularly in my life. I can’t speak for other people, but this is how God has truly displayed His glory in my life, so is it worth it? Was it worth it for me to move cross-culturally? Yeah, but is the most beautiful thing in my life? Jesus? Yes, it’s not living cross-culturally, it’s Jesus. Yeah, and He just happened to call me cross-culturally.

Jim Lovelady: 49:50

Yeah, yeah, and all the sorrow and pain and joy and regret, all of that. You know, I imagine sitting before Jesus and if He said, was it all worth it? I think, like on my best days, I would say I don’t know, but I love you. That’s all I got. You know, like Peter, “You alone have the words of eternal life. I don’t know, but I love you, and so you asked me to do this, and so I’m going to do this. Help me, help me do it. Yeah Well, thank you so much for sharing. This is fantastic.

Lindsay Hall: 50:32

Absolute pleasure.

Jim Lovelady: 50:40

This conversation was so great. I can’t help but point out the wisdom that Lindsay showed as she responded to each of these barriers. Her basic answer was well, it could be this, or it could be that. You have to ask Jesus. That is, faith working itself out in love. As you prayerfully, desperately ask Jesus for wisdom, He will give it to you and He’ll show you where you might be too presumptuous, not counting the cost, and He’ll guide you into humility which will work itself out in love. And he’ll show you where you might be too timid, overwhelmed by the cost, and He’ll give you courage which will work itself out in love. And this reminds me of two classic books from the Serge Library. The first is Heart of a Servant Leader by Jack Miller, and the second is From Fear to Freedom by Rosemary Miller. You may have heard of these books, but if you’ve never actually read them, I encourage you to follow the link in the show notes and go check these out. You’ve got to put these on your reading list. And if this conversation with Lindsay sparked in you an interest in doing cross-cultural ministry for a short-term trip or a long-term trip. I encourage you to go to serge.org/nextstep and start a conversation with one of our recruiters, who will begin to walk with you and be your guide in discerning God’s call on your life. So I asked Lindsay if it was all worth it, and she laughed at me. She laughed at me. She didn’t discount the hardship. In fact, off camera, she had mentioned that the day that we filmed that it was a particularly difficult day, but there’s an overarching, inexpressible joy that comes out in her laughter. Oh, yes, it’s worth it. Where does the humility and courage we need in order to follow Jesus come from? It comes from two things, I think. Seeing Jesus and letting Him see you. Go back to the parables that I talked about at the beginning of this. It comes from seeing Jesus as the great treasure in the field worth selling everything for, and from seeing Jesus as the pearl of great price. I have to have Him, and if you take that seriously, you will have a longing that cries out from deep in your soul that I want this, I want Him, I want you, Lord. But the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. This is where you have to do the second thing. Let Jesus see you. Let him see you as the treasure in the field worth selling everything for. Let him see you as the pearl of great price worth giving everything up for, because that is who you are and that is who Jesus is and that is why He died for you. You are the joy set before Him. So as your savior beckons you out of your comfort zone, count the cost. Count the cost with Him and experience His love. And as you go about your day, remember that you go with Him. So receive His blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you and turn His bright eyes to you and give you His peace, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting Amen.