The Living God Who Speaks: Grace and Power in a World of Silent Idols

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom.

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0:00:22.3 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome back to Grace at the Fray. Do you believe that God actually operates in our world? That He is intimately involved in your life and that He really does hear our prayer? Frankly, it’s easier than ever to not believe that. I think we’re tempted to use our materialistic understanding of the world to explain virtually everything. But secularism hasn’t changed the fact that we long for more. Maybe it’s hard to believe that God operates in our world, but we humans sure would love it if it were true. Nothing can stifle our longing to be in communion with the transcendent. We live in a post-secular world where people are starting to realize that their pop culture allegiances to things like famous people and brands and aesthetics and vibes and all the things that people have looked to for their identity is actually a very religious endeavor, filled with rituals and liturgies that create worship. I feel like the pop culture sentiment isn’t to deny the religiosity of these things, but to actually double down and start demanding blatant worship. If I look at movies and music award shows as an example, it’s pretty easy to see how these famous people put themselves on display in order to be admired and emulated and worshiped. And we do. We worship them. If you’ve made a pilgrimage to Disney World, you know that it resembles ancient religious pilgrimages. Everything about that place is worship. Here’s the gospel according to Disney: “When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are. Anything your heart desires will come to you.” And don’t get me started on how that seemingly lovely promise is a false gospel. Sorry, sorry, not sorry. Okay, so here’s another easy one. Look at how political rallies are starting to be compared with religious worship services. That’s because politics is religion now. All of these things are religion. Does that upset you? Or scare you? Or humble you? The idea that idolatry is a thing that non-Western cultures struggle with, it’s just more silly than ever. The business of the church is to point out idolatry, to expose the worship of false gods and point people to worship the true and living God. And that’s what this episode is all about today. And this is a conversation about what it looks like to let the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus expose the false gods and let the Spirit guide us into the joy of worshiping the one true and living God. The God of power and beauty and humility and grace and generosity and joy. My guest today is… Well, we’ll call him Carl, because he works in a secure location. He’s one of the missionaries that I met at the Business for Transformation retreat in Spain last autumn. And his business has taken him to some remote places to share the gospel with people who have never heard the name of Jesus before and have never experienced the liberating power of the true and living God. The God who speaks and invites us to speak to Him, the God of grace. I sat down with Carl to hear stories of how he’s seeing the gospel free people who are enslaved to their idols. Do you believe we worship the living God who actually operates in our world and hears our prayers? My guest today does. And my hope for you as you listen to this conversation is that you would believe and that that would free you to follow the living God who speaks.

 

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0:04:11.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, Carl, welcome to Grace at the Fray. I’m glad that we get to hang out and even though this isn’t filmed for security reasons, I’m really glad that we get to have some time to hear your story. So, hey, what’s going on? Who are you? Where are you? What are you up to? Give me all those things. 

 

0:04:33.6 Carl: Give you all the deets. Yeah, Jim, I’m over in, we’ll just say, some of the highest mountains on the planet, trying to reach unreached people groups. There’s a string of hundreds of villages that have never heard the gospel. We’ll trek into these places. “Hey, have you guys heard about Jesus?” And someone in the village will be like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I have. Hey, I think he lives across the valley in the village over there.”

 

0:04:55.0 Jim Lovelady: No way.

 

0:04:55.2 Carl: And there’s all kinds of conversations to then step into those spaces and start to introduce these people to the living God. Many assumptions and presumptions is Jesus is for the foreigner. He’s not the God of my people. So we really try to love them well and to model for them these values and these principles that’s about a God that exchanges His life for theirs. They have many deities and they’ll pay them homage and tribute to bequest their gods to pay attention to them, but it’s usually never enough. Usually their gods are silent. And so when they start experiencing healings, even demons being cast out, people are shook and there’s something that’s different here. Perhaps you really do serve the living God. And so we see whole families come to faith, want to be baptized together because they’ve experienced something here that they haven’t anywhere else.

 

0:05:46.1 Jim Lovelady: I love that as we’ve been talking this weekend, you continually have been saying the living God. The living God. And you just said it right now, too, and I was like, yes, because you’re in contrast to… Okay, well, I’ll let you… In contrast to what?

 

0:06:01.4 Carl: Well, I mean, the people group that we serve with, they have their own household deities and then there’s the big deities as well. These are the deities that kind of shape their life. You can’t go anywhere in the country where you don’t see idols in taxi cars and hotels, restaurants. It’s completely interwoven into their life versus in Western cultures, it’s like, “Whoa, you can’t bring that in here.”

 

0:06:24.7 Jim Lovelady: Right, right.

 

0:06:25.1 Carl: “You can’t bring that in the workplace.” Over there, it’s so much like, obviously the spiritual world is crucial to our lives and success really hinges on our obedience, our devotion to follow whichever gods that we follow.

 

0:06:39.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, I think, it’s interesting, the blatant, like, it’s in your face. But in the culture that I serve, it’s very subtle. So we would say, “Oh, I don’t have idols.” It’s like, well, how do you feel after your football team loses? How do you feel when the stock market crashes? How do you feel when the doctor says that you have a certain kind of ailment that is manageable, but it’s going to be annoying for you for the rest of your life? How do you feel when all of these things get knocked over? These… Well, we didn’t realize it was an idol until it got knocked over and I started to pay attention to how I felt about it, how much it impacted my life, how much I felt like I needed it. And when it’s taken away, well, if it’s something that you need and it’s taken away, it’s an idol. And so it’s very subtle in my culture, but it’s very blatant in your culture. So talk to me more about how the living God comes in with power to confront these false gods.

 

0:07:42.2 Carl: Yeah, that’s a great question. So we do treks. So we have a trekking business and then we’re really catering towards an international client base and specifically people who are mostly believers, people who want to come and experience a culture that’s right out of the book of Acts, where you’re still seeing today people praying in Jesus’ name and people being healed. People who have been paralyzed for years, they’re hungry. We actually had one woman had a stroke. Her whole left side of her body, left arm, left leg, was paralyzed for three years after a stroke.

 

0:08:11.5 Jim Lovelady: Wow.

 

0:08:11.8 Carl: And she got word that there was these believers who were praying for people and they were being healed. And she said, “You must bring them to my home.” And so that’s exactly what happened. She had a relative that found these guys, pleaded with them, “Please come to our house and pray for our mother.” And so they did. They saw her condition, their hearts just sank and they’re like, “Her condition is quite severe. We should take her to the hospital.” These are the ministry workers. They said, “No, no, actually, I know we’re supposed to do the prayer thing. Why don’t we just take her to the hospital instead?” And the woman said, “No, you just need to pray for me. Your God hears your prayers.” And so they said with the smallest margins of faith, they prayed. Just a short prayer, “Lord Jesus, would you heal this woman?”

 

0:08:51.2 Jim Lovelady: Wow.

 

0:08:52.1 Carl: And she gets up and walks, and she’s overjoyed, tears flowing down her face. And she begins to dance a little jig in the house because she hasn’t been able to walk. She’s been hobbling around for years. And they begin to ask her, “Would you like to follow Jesus, be baptized?” I think in our Western mind, we’re like, “Okay, we need a three-year catechesis course. She’s got to really understand what’s happening here.” And she said, “I will only be baptized if my husband’s baptized first.” Because in this culture, domestic abuse is quite high. If a woman is the first to become a follower of Jesus, then it’s likely she’ll be treated quite poorly. And so the husband just witnessed his wife be healed. And so he says, “I don’t know what this baptism is, but I want it. Tell me everything there is to know about this Jesus.” So then we see whole families get baptized. And so getting into this heart idolatry issue, that’s one of the things that we teach on our treks and for these tour experiences is we’re trying to… It’s a bit of a spiritual pilgrimage that we take people on as they go into a culture that’s thousands of years old, one of the oldest civilizations on the planet. And you come face to face with these idols, statues towering hundreds of feet high, and as far as little idols that are in your taxi car. And so idolatry has bled deep and has spread wide throughout the country, and it’s the same way it is in our hearts. There’s things that have captivated your hearts that are vices, that are coping mechanisms, things that are literally going to lead to your destruction and ruin your life if we continue to nurse them in darkness and secrecy. And then there’s really good idols like family, friendship, even recreation, like enjoying this wonderful planet that God has given us. These are all good things. But… and this is one of the things we really have to do a lot of legwork in this culture, of having a really clear presentation of what sin is: what is idolatry? And so many people in this culture think, “I’m a good person. I haven’t broken these Ten Commandments in these big ways, like killing someone or stealing a lamb from my neighbor. I’ve never done that. I’m an upstanding shepherd.”

 

0:10:53.5 Jim Lovelady: Right, right.

 

0:10:54.1 Carl: And so it’s really trying to get at how our hearts turned inwards on ourselves and are they misaligned?

 

0:11:02.2 Jim Lovelady: You may feel like you haven’t broken these laws, but you’re still enslaved to things that have power over you. I mean, my favorite example is watching sports. I say this all the time. I graduated from the University of Oklahoma. When Oklahoma football is playing, I am locked into my altar of my 46-inch TV. That is an altar. And I am in a posture of… Well, sometimes I’m standing and pacing the room.

 

0:11:36.1 Carl: True. Pleading.

 

0:11:37.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, pleading. Yeah, all of those things are religious postures that are happening in front of this TV. And on a Saturday afternoon or a Saturday night, if my team loses, my wife is like, “You’re taking this way too seriously.” And it’s like, “Oh man, this is convicting.” Or lately, I haven’t been able to watch live. I’ve been watching later, and my wife will be like, “Don’t bother. Don’t bother watching. I don’t want you to watch, because let me just tell you…” And I’m like, “Oh, okay.” That is idolatry. And football’s a good thing. Sports are good things, but they can be taken to this place where I will find my meaning, I will find my place of satisfaction, I’ll find my identity. “My team’s better than yours. That means I’m better than you.” All of that stuff is at play. So talk to me more about the trekking stuff.

 

0:12:34.4 Carl: Yeah.

 

0:12:37.1 Jim Lovelady: And you talked about how you like to bring believers on these treks, and you talked about the power of prayer. I mean, we’ve had a bunch of conversations this weekend, but you talked about the power of prayer, these kind of prayer trips.

 

0:12:50.7 Carl: Yeah, so I actually was recruited by a medical team. And so this medical team had been placed in this rural mountainous environment for about a decade, and they’d experienced so much amazing platform for ministry. And they would not only treat people medically, but then offer prayer in Jesus’ name. “We can offer you medicine for your physical ailments. We can offer you counseling, point you in that direction if perhaps your condition is emotionally, mentally related. But if your problems persist, perhaps your problems are actually spiritual in nature. And so for that, we can pray for you in Jesus’ name, in the living God, only if you would like. It’s your choice.” And this is a very deeply spiritual place, and there often is, “Please pray for me.” And so that’s often when they’re coming first time in the presence of the Holy Spirit, they’re coming first time in the presence of the living God and experiencing His power, that He does hear our prayers. And so it’s a very mountainous environment, and there’s all these villages that sometimes you can’t even get to them by road. It’s just on foot.

 

0:13:48.5 Jim Lovelady: Really?

 

0:13:49.0 Carl: Yeah. They’ve been doing better in the last five years of paving more of these roads, but it’s just kind of unfolding before our eyes now. And so this doctor, he approached me and said, “Carl, would you come out here and start a business? Start a trekking business.” Not a trucking… So a lot of people think I’m driving these trucks all over the country, and that’s not the case. It’s adventure tourism, and it gives us a platform for a reason to come to these villages, connect with locals, and talk about, “I’m a trekking director, and we’re always trying to find new routes through the mountains, off the beaten path.” We’re trying to give our clients an incredible immersive experience where you’re eating the local food, enjoying local families’ households, often places before our trek begins. And so we literally go to the very end of the road. There’s nowhere else left, and this is a village, no believers there. And so we’ll pray. We’ll pray that their hearts would be responsive to the gospel. And so we also do a lot of equipping with local leaders who have the heart language, who understand the culture, who already have those relational dynamics and trust, and really wanting to equip them and send them because they’re going to be able to communicate the gospel in a way that can resonate with the people there much better than any kind of foreigner. And so the trekking business gives us this platform to come in and bring people in to pray. People are unreached for a reason. They live in remote places. They often are in a country that’s of a different religious background. And so there’s serious spiritual bondage where people have been following darkness or emptiness for hundreds, if not thousands of years. And so for that to shift, that’s not going to happen overnight, and it’s not going to go down without a fight.

 

0:15:25.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, not without prayer.

 

0:15:27.5 Carl: Yeah, prayer. You ask any local person who’s been there a long time, who’s come to faith and is partnering with God in bringing other people to faith, they say, “We don’t go to any village unless we pray for it first,” often for weeks before we actually ever go. And so anyways, we’re bringing in these clients. Some of them have never been outside the country, some of them never been to Asia, and experiencing going into temples and coming face to face with a people group that are deeply religious, but their hearts are bent in the wrong directions. Not their fault, that’s just all they’ve ever known. And so we really want to pray into those spaces. And I teach courses or sessions on the trip on heart idolatry, spiritual warfare, and mission. And then we go and do a high-altitude trek in the Himalayas, experiencing amazing aspects of God’s handiwork and having even more aspects of being able to pray in the wilderness for these people, but then also for our hearts. We really want this experience to impact and transform our clients in the process.

 

0:16:18.3 Jim Lovelady: And a fantastic adventure.

 

0:16:20.3 Carl: It’s definitely that. It’s definitely that.

 

0:16:23.8 Jim Lovelady: Oh, man. So it was convicting when you said, “I just want people to come here and pray.” Like, “All I want you to do is come and pray.” You remember saying that somewhere? I admit, the first my visceral reaction was, “Really? That’s it?” That was my reaction. Like, “That’s all you want? You just want people to pray?” And you’re like, “You don’t understand the power of prayer.” I mean, that really was kind of what the Holy Spirit said right after that. And even just now you’re saying, “Hey, we don’t go into a village until we’ve prayed, oftentimes for weeks.” And so, yeah, the invitation is, “Hey, come have an adventure, but come ready to pray for the Spirit to come to these places and bring gospel liberation to these people.”

 

0:17:19.0 Carl: Yeah. Yeah, I think so much in the West we really find our identity in what we do versus really who we are. I struggle with that probably the most of a lot of people too, so I’m no better in this capacity. But it’s really, it’s like, if I’m going to do a short-term trip, what house am I going to build to leave to say, “This is what we did”? So, yeah, maybe initially, “come pray” doesn’t sound super sexy or like you’re moving mountains. But we read in James, it talks about the prayer of a righteous man is powerful. And it talks about Elijah prayed that there would not rain for three years, and it did not rain. Then he prayed and it rained. And so why do we pray weak and feeble prayers? We pray prayers that are generic and like, if God doesn’t answer them, it doesn’t impact or change our life in any way. “I pray that you would find a spouse if it’s God’s will in His timing.” Wow, that was really vague. Versus we see in scripture, someone’s injured and Jesus says, “Get up and walk.” There’s no more wine.

 

0:18:22.0 Jim Lovelady: Why do you think that we tend to do that?

 

0:18:25.2 Carl: That’s a… Yeah, I think we want to let God off the hook. If God doesn’t answer this prayer and I pray specifically, there’s a timetable. Like, if you pray a generic, no-timetable-related prayer, it’s completely in God’s timing, His control. And sure, He’s sovereign. Guess what? He’s going to do what He wants whether you give Him a timetable or not.

 

0:18:48.0 Jim Lovelady: Absolutely.

 

0:18:48.6 Carl: But I think God, He loves… He’s the God of the universe. He can flex. Wouldn’t you be disappointed if you are the richest man in the world and people come to you and say, “Can I have a little wooden toy cart? Just a little guy, maybe a foot big”? And He’s like, “I could give you the world.”

 

0:19:08.6 Jim Lovelady: “You want a Lambo? You can have a Lambo.”

 

0:19:11.0 Carl: In the realm of spiritual things, right? This isn’t prosperity gospel. Easy, Jim.

 

0:19:17.3 Jim Lovelady: Well, the richest man…

 

0:19:19.1 Carl: Yeah.

 

0:19:20.2 Jim Lovelady: That’s funny.

 

0:19:20.9 Carl: But yeah, I once had a friend at seminary, and I was walking in and I was trying to become friends with him, and I was like, “If you ever need anything, you let me know. You let me know.” I had no idea. Who says this? I usually don’t talk like this, but in that moment, I was like, “Bro, you just let me know. I got you.” And I had this big paper to write, and I didn’t have much time to do it. And he goes, “You know what? I’m actually pretty hungry right now. I’d love some donuts.” And I’m just thinking, I don’t got time to get this guy donuts. And so I was like, “Bro, would you… Okay, let’s pray about this.” And he was like, “Oh, yeah, okay.” And so I was like, “Hey, Jesus, my brother’s hungry here. You’re a good Father. You give good gifts. Would you bring him donuts today?” And that was it. Then I go work on my paper. It turns out it’s a Friday. The library closed at 5:00. I only had 30 minutes. So they’re calling everyone out, and I’m like, well, I got pretty much nothing done. And on the way out, I see my friend with a bag of donuts. And I’m like, no freaking way. And he had a friend who was driving by and he just thought of him, and he pulled over his car, went to the donut shop, and brought this guy donuts. Not in a dating relationship, just a buddy who thought of him. And it’s the most instantaneous prayer, and it’s over something so frivolous and ridiculous as donuts. But if this is the God that cares about us, He cares about the big things and the small things. Why wouldn’t we trust Him with things like, oh, I don’t know, having a village that’s never heard the gospel believe and respond and having their whole communities transformed?

 

0:20:44.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s fantastic. It’s funny how easy it is to lose faith after those moments where you’re like, “Oh, my gosh. The Lord provided. The Lord does love me. I am His beloved child. He cares about… I asked for something silly and He gave that to me with such generosity and with kind of like a ‘signed with love, your Savior’ because it was from a friend who was thinking of him.” It wasn’t just some random thing. It was relational, deeply relational, because this guy was actually used by God to show God’s love in specific tenderness. And it’s like, that’s a really cool story. All right, well, that’s fine now, well, what about today? How do I believe today? How do I trust in that same goodness of the same Heavenly Father who has the same love for me in whatever’s going on in my heart, in my life today? Okay, well, help me. I mean, “I believe; help me in my unbelief” is kind of where it’s at.

 

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0:22:01.0 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for our teams in Rwanda and South Asia. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that You would bless these folks. Speak to them even now of Your grace and mercy. Give them joy in their work in Your Kingdom and the pleasure of Your joy as they follow You. Give them wisdom and let Your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, and with the people that they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved, protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness, and restore to them the joy of Your salvation. Let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in these places, just as it is in Heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now back to the conversation.

 

0:23:02.5 Carl: We’re really kind of getting at the power of the living God. This is a God who hears. This is a God who sees. And what is the uniqueness of our faith? And so, it’s like, when I was in seminary and I was doing this Islamic course of study, I read the whole Quran, and I was a little nervous before I went into it, thinking, is this going to tilt my heart? Is this going to cause me to have doubts when I come face to face in depth with these other religious systems? And it actually did the exact opposite. It was one of the most encouraging courses. Out of the 30 courses to get your M.Div. At the seminary I went to, it was my most encouraging course in my faith because I realized that this was… It fell apart. It was a house of sand. And so in there wasn’t this same assurance of deep, lasting peace for my soul. It was a Hail Mary. If Allah’s merciful, who knows if he will be? But we have the only faith in the world that has assurance. Only through Christ do you have this deep resting assurance that you’re going to be okay. And not because you’re somehow so good enough or righteous enough that your karma has earned you a higher place in your next life. It’s simply what has been done for you. And that is unbelievably, unequivocally unique and different. And when we’re talking with people… I’ve had a conversation, me and a buddy of mine, we were riding mountain bikes into different villages, and a local priest stopped us and saw that we were struggling out of water. And he invited us into his home. And so we followed him, and he starts serving us fresh pomegranate and drinking water. And it’s like, wow, what hospitality. And then from that encounter, we ended up meeting his son. And his son, he commutes and works near my house. And so I said, “Well, after work, you come over to my house.” And over there, usually you want to build a relationship and go slow. And me and my friend, that was our intentions, but he started saying things that weren’t true about what I believed. And so we got a little frustrated.

 

0:24:59.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh!

 

0:25:01.3 Carl: Yeah. His grandfather just passed away. And the Hindu priest said… his son said, “Every faith, when someone has died, you pray that God would have mercy on them.” And my buddy, his father just passed away, actually, literally the month before. And so he said, at the funeral, there were no prayers of, “Lord, maybe, just maybe barely, could you allow my father into Your Kingdom?” He said, “We know without a shadow of the doubt that he is with Jesus now. He has a closeness with him that we have never experienced on this planet. And it’s all by the blood of Jesus. It’s paid in full.” That gives you a certain level of peace and hope and joy, not just for one day, but for right now, of out of all your relationships, even how you tackle work, I think it gives it a really good perspective that we don’t need to let these things crush us as if it all depends on me, but in actuality, we can trust our Father who’s with us in these things.

 

0:25:59.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. What did he… How did that conversation go?

 

0:26:02.2 Carl: He said, “That can’t be true.” He said, “That can’t be true. That’s not what it says.” And so I actually had to get a Bible and put it in front of him and say, “Brother, would you read this for me? This is God’s word. It’s for all people, all places, all languages. It’s in your native tongue.”

 

0:26:17.6 Jim Lovelady: Praise God for Bible translators.

 

0:26:21.9 Carl: And he reads it, and he probably read it five to six times. This idea… We was reading Ephesians 2. You’re not saved by works so that no one can boast. You’re saved by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone. It’s not on you. And it is the first time he’s ever heard of it. So he really wrestled with it. And so we had to… Instead of argue with him, we had to let him encounter God’s word for himself. And he went off to all kinds of other things, but at the end of it, he gave us both big hugs of the first time he’s ever had a gospel conversation in his life. First time ever meeting him in my house for over two hours, maybe two to three hours, and it’s ending with big hugs. And other believers in the community were a bit shocked and they’re like, “This is dangerous. You’re talking with a priest’s son about these things.” And it’s ending with hugs. And this is what I really want to encourage the western church to be able to start dialoguing and having spiritual conversations and be friendly, be loving. Be more interested than being interesting in their stories. And what is God already doing in their story? And can you put a finger on it? Can you ask good questions that after they leave that conversation with you, they’re still pondering about what you talked about? When Jesus talks with people, we want to share our faith like Jesus does. Well, how did Jesus do it? Well, He asked really good questions. In the Gospels, He asks around 287 questions. This is the one who knows all the answers. But why does He ask the questions? Because He’s constantly trying to get to your heart.

 

0:27:57.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:27:57.8 Carl: What do you long for? What do you hope for? What do you think? And this is the way Jesus goes about it. And so this is the way we also want to model it. I don’t want to give you some kind of method, some plug and play. I want you to be really interested in people’s stories and ask, if you’re in America, ask, “Hey, man, I don’t know if I’ve ever asked you this before. Do you have a religious background at all? Oh, tell me what that’s like for you.” And listen to what they say. You don’t need to come up with an agenda. You get to the gospel, amazing. You don’t, okay. We’re building building blocks and we want to flex these muscles of being able to engage in spiritual conversations. And it’s okay. It’s good. And the more we normalize this, the more we practice at this, the better you’re going to get at it. So there’s a study they did, and eight out of ten people who shared their faith thought, and they asked them, “How did it go? Did you feel like you did a good job?” said, “No, it didn’t go well. They didn’t like it. I don’t think I want to do this again.” And think about it. The things that we are poor at, we tend to not want to do. Any great musician, any great athlete, there’s hours and hours of practice that they pour into this. Why don’t we do this in our spiritual conversations? Find a believing brother and sister, start practicing sharing your faith in one minute, in three minutes, in five minutes, in different time frames, depending on the situation, flex those muscles. But then also think, how can we get here? Am I just throwing my story onto people, or have I first asked them questions? And you’ve been a good listener, because often they’re going to want to return the favor. “Oh, what about you? Did you grow up in a religious household? What was that like for you?” And it’s a chance for you to share your story, but you first listened to theirs.

 

0:29:34.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So there are two things I’ve noticed. There’s two types of evangelism, maybe. We first talked about kind of power evangelism, where we recognize that there are powers and principalities that hate the Kingdom of God and are enslaving people. And you walk in and you declare, like the Colossians passage, the resurrection of Christ has humiliated the powers and principalities so that revealed them to be just silly. And silly is kind of a… Maybe not the best word when someone is enslaved by these powers. But this kind of evangelism that goes in and goes, “My God is more powerful than your gods,” and “Do you want to be free? Do you want to be healed?” And even how it’s like, “Hey, I’ve heard that your God is more powerful than my gods. Would you please pray?” “Well, I could take you to the hospital.” “No, I just want you to pray.” I love that when this person’s faith is stronger than the people who are of the faith. So there’s this power, but then there’s also this power evangelism, but then there’s also this weakness evangelism, where it’s like, “Hey, I’m in desperate need of the same kind of grace that you’re in need of. Tell me your story and how that story is very similar to my story.” And just being willing to ask good questions and be patient with someone unpacking their story and not coming… I can’t remember how you put it. Basically like, “I’m not coming to give you all the answers. I’m coming to hear your story, and I want to hear you, even though I know that I serve the living God and I’m confident in that, and I want you to know this living God.” So I don’t know. What do you think about those two categories?

 

0:31:26.9 Carl: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. A lot of aspects of living in the East is people really don’t care so much what’s true. It’s relative truth. Actually, America’s shifting a lot more in that direction, and so it’s becoming a bit more like South Asia. The interesting aspect is God knows this. God knows our cultures are different. And so the way that He operates often in the East is He knows it’s questions of power. And He says, “You’re bowing down tangibly to these different deities and these different idols made in their image. You know what? Let’s go.” It’s like World War I. It’s like trench warfare. It’s bloody, it’s murky. People come and they feel the heaviness. It’s dark. I even have people from this country who live in America, believers now, when they come back and have an experience here and see the spiritual bondage, they’re often in tears. And they often will say, “I have nothing in common with these people,” but ethnically they’re the same. But they grew up in the West, and when they return, there’s this visceral reaction. “I have nothing in common with these people. What could I possibly offer?” Because it’s so jarring to them. But it’s these questions of power. Most people we see come to faith, someone in their family was healed. Someone in their family experienced healing from a demon being cast out.

 

0:32:43.5 Jim Lovelady: Some sort of liberation.

 

0:32:44.5 Carl: Something unique happened that they can’t quite explain, and they have to look up. And it’s not looking up at their deities. It’s looking at this new God, living God, who actually can operate in our world and hears our prayers. But then the question in the West, I think we’re often asking, is not so much who has power. We’re asking this question, “What is true?” Previously, before we move into this kind of moment in time that’s all about “my truth” is the most important, but I think historically, previously it was really asking, “What is true? Is Jesus really who He says He is?” And so a lot of conversations are this search for truth. And Jesus operates on that. He is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

0:33:25.2 Jim Lovelady: That doesn’t surprise Him either.

 

0:33:26.6 Carl: Yeah, yeah. He can operate in both ways. And then also at the same time, in Western cultures, the spiritual is really kind of in the background. It’s not in your face. And so I think the enemy, he doesn’t want demon possessions happening. He doesn’t want to give opportunities for Jesus to flex in this way. Because I mean, I think it’s C.S. Lewis, maybe someone else, but who said the greatest lie the devil ever convinced the world is that he doesn’t exist. And so that’s what the West believes. And it’s like, “Oh, he doesn’t exist. Okay.” But no, there’s a spiritual enemy out there who wants to see you separated from God’s goodness and a relationship with Him as this loving Father. He loves that. And so when we pretend like that’s not a thing, we become, I think, spiritually vulnerable in the West. And even when I’m back visiting in the US, it’s a little harder for me, actually, because it’s so comfortable. It’s so incredibly comfortable in life versus this honking, dust, dirty, pollution. I’m the only foreigner in my village. I don’t belong. And so it’s easier to live, I think, a radical life devoted to Jesus when you don’t belong. It’s like, “Why am I here?”

 

0:34:44.2 Jim Lovelady: Interesting.

 

0:34:46.0 Carl: It’s a clear, constant reminder of like when you’re a soldier deployed for duty, it’s pretty easy to live like every day is all you got. When you’re back in civilian lifestyle in your own country, eating the food and stuff that you enjoy, it’s really easy to start to put up the feet. And this is my question I’d ask people in the West is, when was the last time you took a risk for Jesus? When was the last time you were willing to be uncomfortable? And if it’s a long time, why don’t you do something about it?

 

0:35:16.1 Jim Lovelady: It may be time to go on an adventure.

 

0:35:17.8 Carl: Maybe time to go on an adventure. Like, come to where I’m doing business and we’ll take you on a tour, an adventure of a lifetime. But you’re going to encounter people’s stories who walked away, and there’s great cost to them, and they said it’s worth it. And what would that be like for your life, for you then to walk back into your culture, rubbing shoulders with these people who’ve given everything for Jesus and it was worth it? What would that do in your faith? Would it fan that spark into a flame? And perhaps God would use you in mighty ways, in ways that maybe you haven’t even expected or even believed that He could.

 

0:35:50.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s so good. Okay, maybe last… Maybe last question. I don’t know, maybe. You mentioned like you’re the only foreigner in your entire village, and that’s gotta be lonely. That’s gotta be tough. What is it… How do you do that? How do you experience God’s presence? How do you continue to lock into the grace, the daily invitation to grace in that context? Because…

 

0:36:28.0 Carl: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my physical situation might seem really unique, but I think my mental and emotional situation might be quite common. There’s global epidemics in the West, and it’s one of the most lonely places to live. It’s an increasingly individualistic culture, versus in Asia where homes are intertwined with multiple generations and there’s this unbelievable reliance on each other to do life. You need something, you go to your neighbor. Do you set up an appointment to have lunch or dinner with someone? You don’t. You show up. And so this incredible open-door policy has never been truer. And so relationships are deep there, which is beautiful. And so… But there it is deeply lonely because I can’t share the same culture that I’m from. That’s unbelievably reassuring and comforting, and there’s so much life there. When any kind of immigrant moves to a new location, they’re often moving to where other immigrants are from their culture. Why is that? Because there’s something that friendship says, “Oh, you too?”

 

0:37:27.5 Jim Lovelady: Yep. That’s right.

 

0:37:28.2 Carl: “You too love my food. You too love my music. You get me.” And so there is a deep loneliness when you’re in a space like I’m at. And I do have teammates, and just given the situations, they’re back in the US for months and months and months. And they even want to come back, and they’re waiting on visas and stuff like that. And so when you’re in these spaces in between waiting, I think it’s really easy to believe these things like, “I’m all alone.” Because you really, in some ways, you are all alone. And so I think it’s super important not to believe this lie that the living God isn’t somehow real with you, that He really does go before us. He really is close to the brokenhearted and the downtrodden, that He does desire to walk with us. And so there is a space that I’ve never found myself in of having lots of time to just be with God. And so the question is, am I going to numb myself to my loneliness and distract with social media or YouTube or speed chess? You name it. There’s these things that we can numb the experience because it is painful. And what does it say? “God, this is hard. I really need you.” And I told my friends before I came back, knowing that there would be no other foreigners going back with me, I told them, “God has to show up in a big way. And if He doesn’t show up in a big way, I don’t know if I’m going to make it.” And so there’s very, very much on the table, “God, I need you. And I need you in big ways.” And so I read that book about, actually about loneliness by Elisabeth Elliot, a woman who was widowed multiple times. So talk about understanding loneliness. And that was also quite helpful for me to think my story isn’t…

 

0:39:07.7 Jim Lovelady: You’re not alone in your story about loneliness.

 

0:39:10.3 Carl: That’s right. Well said. 

 

0:39:14.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. It’s like, “Jesus, You can provide some donuts for my friend. You can be here with me. Help me to believe that You’re here with me.” But I think it’s fascinating that you’re pointing out the sense of loneliness that we can have in individualistic cultures. It’s alone in a crowd. The feeling—there’s a word for it, I can’t remember what the word is, when you feel alone in a crowd. And how much that is a part of the culture that I serve in where loneliness and anxiety are just off the charts and you’re surrounded by people, but this feeling of isolation. And it’s this: “Does anybody really know me? Does anybody really love me? Does anybody really care about me?” And I love that you’re leaning into that. You’re like, “Okay, this false god over here says, ‘Hey, come scroll for hours and hours and hours, and I promise you, you will feel known and loved.'” It’s a freaking lie. “Hey, come do this or that. Hey, come drink this or that. Hey, come take this or that, and you will get the thing that you want.” And really, it’s like… It’s the temptation of, “Hey, make bread. Turn this stone into bread.” 

 

0:40:22.4 Carl: Gratify yourself now.

 

0:40:23.9 Jim Lovelady: Gratify yourself now. Versus what you’re saying is like, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but by the word of the living God.” Anyway.

 

0:40:34.1 Carl: Yeah. And then one other story I wanted to share that I wanted to mention earlier is talking about the power of the living God and He sees us in our stories. And we had one woman who came to faith, and her father’s a priest, and she has six sisters, two boys. She tells her father she wants to follow Jesus, and he’s furious. And he sets up for an arranged marriage later that week.

 

0:40:56.7 Jim Lovelady: Later that week?

 

0:40:57.6 Carl: Later that week.

 

0:40:58.5 Jim Lovelady: Like last minute, “I gotta fix this.”

 

0:40:59.9 Carl: Yeah, you can’t follow this Jesus.

 

0:41:02.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

 

0:41:03.6 Carl: “This is going to be the solution.” And so she’s distraught, and she sneaks out and she comes to my teammate who’s a medical doctor. And that day he’d been reading the Psalms, and he had been wondering about when David prays a curse on his enemies. Should we do this today? And then this girl comes in and sits with him and his wife and is crying and sharing what’s happened. And he said, “I think we should pray about this.” And he prayed that her dad would be overcome by unbearable pain and that he would have to come to the clinic and only be healed not by medicine, but by prayer in Jesus’ name. ‘Cause what he was doing was wicked. And so he was like, “My God should weigh in on this.” And in the afternoon, a few hours later, he can’t get out of bed. He’s in agony. He can’t even come to the clinic. Like, that was the prayer, “Come to the clinic, be healed.” He can’t even get out of bed. So he sends one of his daughters on his behalf, pleading, asking that we would pray for him. And so the believers gather and they pray that God would have mercy on him. And the pain subsides completely. He was unbelievably convinced that this is the living God. And so he then canceled the arranged marriage and even to this day allows his daughter to meet with the believers. So I just love this story because it’s a God who’s working in our life. He’s not the clockmaker God who created the universe, set it into motion, and walks away. No, He’s still here, still sees us, and cares deeply for us, and He can still enter our world in ways that we don’t always expect or imagine.

 

0:42:37.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, that’s wild. I have a friend who’s a pastor who a few years ago had a really troublesome elder. It was just causing all sorts of issues. So this is another story about the living God that sobers you. This guy, this elder, was just… He was really difficult and he was causing a lot of issues, and it was just frustrating. So the pastor is praying, “Lord, I don’t know what to pray. Would you make this guy stop?” And a couple days later, he died. And it’s like, “Oh, my… Whoa.” It’s like Ananias and Sapphira. It’s like, “Whoa.” It’s like Peter in the boat after he pulls in all these fish, on his face, “Lord, Lord, have mercy on me.” This is overwhelming. Those kinds of things. It’s like we serve a living God who is about His glory. And that is discomforting for people in the West to be confronted with a God who does what He wants, but also is very close to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. I mean, what do you do with those stories other than just bow down? We serve a living God.

 

0:44:02.4 Carl: Yeah. And the amazing uniqueness, even just comparing paradise in Islam to Heaven in the Christian faith. In Islam, God does not dwell with you. It’s a paradise. Lots of women, lots of good food.

 

0:44:17.2 Jim Lovelady: You get stuff.

 

0:44:18.1 Carl: You get stuff, but God’s not there. Allah’s not there. But the Christian narrative of Heaven is… This is one of the reasons, actually, that encouraged my faith, that even helped me come to faith for my own self, of like, I don’t think a human would write this. We get God. We get a presence with Him. We get this intimacy, this closeness. And yeah, is there no more pain? Absolutely. Is it unbelievable treasures and riches and fullness of life? Absolutely. But I think what we get the most is God, Emmanuel, God with us. That’s the end of the road for the believer.

 

0:44:55.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:44:56.1 Carl: And so the amazing thing is for the believer, the closest thing you’ll ever come to hell is right now in all the trials and hardships. And the closest thing to Heaven for the unbeliever is right now, this earth. The closest thing to Heaven they’ll ever get without Christ is right now. This is it. And then it gets much worse from here. And so like every person, God has placed eternity in our hearts. And so there really is an onus for us to be a part of God’s mission. And so I really desire the global church to wake up and to take joy. God doesn’t have to use us. He doesn’t need us, but we get to be used. We get to be part of the process, part of the plan. And for once, can you imagine the chance of watching NBA basketball from the stands your whole life, and then for a moment to say, “Hey, take the court”? And you’re thinking, “I don’t think I can. I can’t play at that level.” And he goes, “Well, what if it’s my Spirit that’s going to sustain you?” And he imbued in you these NBA-level skills. How exciting would that be to take the court? And that’s the Christian story. It’s this great adventure. And we see this across most fields on the planet, they’re predominantly women, or definitely more women-heavy with numbers-wise. What are the men doing? And I think often men, we get lost in following the ways of the world, and that’s more exciting: making more money, growing our success, prestige, career. But really the greatest adventure you can live is saying, “God, I’m going to follow You, even if that looks like doing hard things, because You’re with me and You’re going to go with me.” And that’s the most liberating thing. And I think for once, don’t worry about building your Kingdom. You get to build God’s Kingdom. Yours isn’t going to last. Maybe a couple years after you die, people might still remember you, maybe. And so live a life and die to be forgotten, but people will remember Jesus because of what you did and how you lived.

 

0:46:44.5 Jim Lovelady: Amen. Yeah. Men, stand up. Let’s go. Brace yourself like a man and let’s go.

 

0:46:51.1 Carl: Gird your loins.

 

0:46:51.9 Jim Lovelady: Gird your loins. Let’s do this. Absolutely. Man, I love your passion. I love your heart. I love how you lean. Just whatever it is, you’re just going to lean into it. And your curiosity and your boldness. And there’s courage where you’re like, “Huh, Jesus, are you going to be there when I go over there? I’m going to go to that village. Are you going to be there?” And He’s like, “I’ve been there. Let’s go. Come see what I’ve been up to. Come be ready.” And even in the doubts and the loneliness and the uncertainty of all sorts of things, and we haven’t unpacked any of the current trials and frustrations of ministry. We don’t need to do that, but it’s just that you’re leaning into it like, “Okay, Lord, I trust you. Help me to trust you.” I just appreciated getting to hear that. In every conversation that I’ve sat down with you, it’s been evident. I don’t know how many meals it’s been, but it’s been super encouraging for me. So thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing.

 

0:47:56.5 Carl: Jim, happy to do it. And I really just want to say there’s nothing special about me. I am your average, average guy that God is just choosing to use out of weakness. I’ve never started a business before in a foreign country, in a culture that I don’t know, in a language I’m not familiar with, and He’s opened up so many doors. And there’s been all kinds of hurdles and obstacles and setbacks and betrayals, but God, He’s like, “You know what? If you’re willing, I’m going with you.” And so I would just want to encourage other people. If you don’t have all the answers, you don’t know exactly what it’ll look like, you don’t even know if you can, but God really… He wants a willing heart. And so it’s like, “You know, God, I can give you my willingness. I can go all cards down on this, but I’m going to trust the results up to You. I can trust You.” So that’s just what I’d encourage people, wherever they are, whatever season. What’s the hard thing that needs to be done that you can do, but it might be stretching, it might be costly? But chin up, bucko, that’s the gospel.

 

0:48:56.1 Jim Lovelady: That’s right. Amen. Thanks, bro.

 

0:48:59.8 Carl: Jim, always a pleasure.

 

0:49:07.9 Jim Lovelady: Do you know how to spot the idols in your own life? You gotta pay attention to your emotions, pay attention to where the feeling of loss makes you feel threatened. If I can’t have that, then I can’t be satisfied. John Calvin was right. Our hearts are like idol making factories, always looking to build our own sense of righteousness and self-confidence, always trusting empty promises that have no real life. Do you know how to spot those idols? Our Mentored Sonship program is designed to guide you into those places in your life that need the light of the gospel, of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus, those places that need liberation from false idols. If you don’t really know how your actions and emotions reveal what you worship, I want to invite you to go on a journey toward freedom that is only found in fellowship and participation with the true and living God. And here’s the best promise ever: when you rest in Jesus Christ, it doesn’t matter who you were or what you’ve done, all the deepest longings of your heart will be satisfied. And when you’re caught and captivated by the living God, you will risk everything and people around you are going to notice and they will be blessed. So when was the last time you took a risk for Jesus? When was the last time that you were willing to be uncomfortable simply because He asked you to? If God is who He says He is, you can take a risk for him no matter where you are. So here’s your opportunity. You can join Carl for a short term mission trip up in the mountains, and you can join our field workers for a short-term trip in other parts of the world, in South America, in Europe, and North Africa. I’ll leave a link in the show notes for you to explore opportunities to let Jesus guide you into new, risky adventures. And I guarantee that you will return with amazing stories that will be a blessing and an encouragement to your faith community. You have no idea how impactful a short-term trip overseas can impact your local community. And since we’ve been talking about Serge’s Business for Transformation ministries, I think it’s appropriate to let you wrestle with Jesus a bit on the topic of work and vocation, workaholism, and finding your identity in what you do rather than in who you are in Christ. If you’re wrestling with these topics, I want you to check out a blog post on our website. It’s called “The Difference Between Workaholism and Walking in Good Works.” Check out the link in the show notes. We have tons of resources on our website, so just go hang out at serge.org for a bit. And I want you to look for an opportunity to take a risk for Jesus today. I don’t think I mean to do something risky to impress Jesus. It’s not that. That’s not how it works. It’s much more simple than that. I want you to pay attention to where Jesus is inviting you into something just a little bit scarier than your idol of comfort allows. And I want you to trust Jesus with that risk because He loves you, and because you actually really do, when it all comes down to it, you do love Him. And as you go, go in the love and the strength of the living God who speaks His blessing over you. So receive His blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you, turn His bright eyes to you, and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting. Amen.

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