Movements of Grace in Church Planting and Community Renewal

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His kingdom.

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0:00:22.9 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome to Grace at the Fray. I have a fantastic show for you today. My guest is Howard Brown. He’s a pastor and church planter in Atlanta, and he’s a good friend to the Serge Grace at the Fray community. In fact, he wrote the most recent addition to our 𝘎𝘰𝘴𝘱𝘦𝘭 𝘊𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘥 𝘓𝘪𝘧𝘦 in the Bible series on the book of 𝘈𝘤𝘵𝘴. And man, this is a great little study designed especially for small group Bible studies. And if you are prayerfully on the lookout for God to shake things up in your community, this is a great place to start. I’ll leave a link for how you can pick that up in the show notes. And before I take you to that conversation, I want to ask you this question. Do you want the Spirit of God to move? Do you really want God to move in your life, in your community, in your family, in your workplace and in the world? Because when the Spirit of God moves, it means that we have to get our agendas out of the way. And that is no easy feat. Let’s be honest, relinquishing our agendas feels like death. It’s normal that we have to relinquish our agendas and learn new areas of repentance in order to experience personal and corporate revival. But here’s the amazing and glorious reality. When the Spirit moves, it will not only be in the midst of and in spite of our sin and beyond our own efforts, it will be beyond your categories of understanding more than you can ask or imagine. So how do you talk about how the Spirit moves and creates movements of grace? Well, Howard and I are going to give it our best shot. So hold on tight for one wild ride.

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0:02:24.4 Jim Lovelady: Howard Brown.

0:02:25.0 Howard Brown: Hello.

0:02:25.0 Jim Lovelady: Welcome to Grace at the Fray, my friend. Welcome to the studio.

0:02:28.9 Howard Brown: All right.

0:02:29.6 Jim Lovelady: I’m glad you’re in town.

0:02:31.1 Howard Brown: I like this place.

0:02:31.6 Jim Lovelady: I’m glad.

0:02:33.1 Howard Brown: It’s a cool little bunch of little cities, towns rather. I like it.

0:02:36.2 Jim Lovelady: I love how it didn’t take you long for you to be what’s this town all about? What’s this little village all about? You’ve been here for 24 hours or whatever. And you’re hey, what is this place? Jenkintown? They’ve got a city center. And you’re analyzing. You’re just always thinking church planter because you’re a church planter.

0:03:00.1 Howard Brown: Yeah. I think could I live here? What’s neat about this community? What’s holding it together? What’s awesome about it? I kind of like looking at stuff like that.

0:03:09.2 Jim Lovelady: It just immediately floats in front of your mind.

0:03:11.5 Howard Brown: Yeah. Immediately I just oh, this is cool. Look at this. And I’m looking at “for sale” signs, looking at home prices, anywhere I go. Just to be who’s here? Like who can afford to be here? Looking at the political signs, who’s who they voting for? What’s going on? What kind of school? What kind of? And then eventually I’ll get into a shop like I went to the cigar shop.

0:03:34.1 Jim Lovelady: And you found the cigar shop immediately.

0:03:34.7 Howard Brown: And I asked her questions about the area. Who’s here? 

0:03:38.4 Jim Lovelady: I love it.

0:03:39.2 Howard Brown: What’s going on? 

0:03:39.3 Jim Lovelady: I guess.

0:03:39.4 Howard Brown: And that’s fun for me. I can do that. All that.

0:03:41.1 Jim Lovelady: Shout out to Kay’s.

0:03:41.3 Howard Brown: Kay’s awesome.

0:03:42.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. She’s awesome.

0:03:45.0 Howard Brown: Awesome cigar shop. Awesome lady. Place is clean. She got it going on in there.

0:03:50.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. So you’re a church planter and you wrote a book.

0:03:56.6 Howard Brown: Yep.

0:03:56.7 Jim Lovelady: A Bible study on the book of Acts, which for a church planter is pretty, I don’t know, convenient. This is a book about planting churches.

0:04:08.5 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:08.6 Jim Lovelady: So I wanted to hear, I mean there are a few things in this book that I want to play around with.

0:04:15.9 Howard Brown: Okay.

0:04:17.3 Jim Lovelady: But yeah, I want to hear what you’re up to, and we’ll get to the book because especially let’s just do, let’s just, I’ll tell you right now. My favorite chapter was “how to start a gospel riot”. I mean you had me at that title. And I loved this chapter. So I’m going to.

0:04:40.6 Howard Brown: Okay.

0:04:42.1 Jim Lovelady: One of the wonderful things that I love about doing this is I get to sit down with the author of the book and I can be “Hey, I read your book. I have some questions”.

0:04:50.7 Howard Brown: Go right ahead.

0:04:50.7 Jim Lovelady: So, we’ll get to that. But yeah, What are you up to, man? 

0:04:55.9 Howard Brown: So Kellie and I have moved to Atlanta to plant the church kindred hope church. And it is in Southwest Atlanta in an area that is 89% African-American. I would say it’s middle-class upper middle-class area. African-American college educated professionals are in that area. It’s about 10 minutes West of the airport. And we really feel like Atlanta, just like the airport there, is a place that the gospel can begin to grow and that we would be more than just a church, but that we’d be a movement to, and among in particular for us, African-Americans as we’re part of a denomination right now that’s represented probably about 1 or 2% in our denomination. And so we feel like God’s called us to this particular work at this time. Now, before we came to Atlanta, we planted a multi-ethnic church in Charlotte 20 years ago and grew that. And we felt like God was saying, let’s go do a more peculiar in particular work. But this is, this started 25 years ago when Kellie and I finished Covenant Seminary and we were hired by, get this, Perimeter Church to intern at Redemption Fellowship, which was the first kind of black-led, black community based church of its kind. And we went and we learned under Lewis Wilson who planted that church and trained to do church planting for Perimeter, guess what? In the same area we’re planting now.

0:06:52.6 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:06:53.6 Howard Brown: It just took 25 years to get there for God to teach us some lessons to come back around. And so we’re real excited. We believe it’s the hand of God. It is a scratch church plant. And for those of who don’t know what that means, it means you don’t get any people from the mother church.

0:07:10.2 Jim Lovelady: It means you parachute it in.

0:07:12.5 Howard Brown: Basically.

0:07:13.1 Jim Lovelady: And you’re looking for kindred spirits.

0:07:15.4 Howard Brown: Yes. For Kindred Hope Church. Yes. There you go. And so, because we were there 25 years ago when we were there doing our internship, the area we concentrated on was youth. So there was no youth ministry at this church as a church plant. And they’re like okay, go start a youth ministry ’cause you’re the youngest interns we have. So Kellie and I started youth ministry and we grew it. It was incredible, right. Now, 25 years later, some of those kids are still there.

0:07:47.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:07:47.8 Howard Brown: And so we were able to tap some of those roots and begin to network. And I tell people, if you got a name, if you got a number, if you got a person, I love just cold call raw meetings with people. I like it. If you give me a number, if you give me a text, if you give me email, if you give me Instagram, I will get in touch.

0:08:10.0 Jim Lovelady: You’ll attract those people down.

0:08:10.1 Howard Brown: Oh, yeah. Just to talk. I mean, it may not mean they’re coming to our church or whatever. I just, that’s what I do for a living and I don’t mind doing it.

0:08:18.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:08:19.8 Howard Brown: So we’re excited about this work. As a PCA pastor, again, it is in an area and among a culture of people that we hadn’t done too well in.

0:08:32.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:08:33.7 Howard Brown: Truth be told. I am one of a few and sometimes I think I’m crazy for being here too. But God has us here and this is what we’re doing and so we’re excited. We are our church plant at Perimeter Church, which is about, let’s see, on a regular day with no traffic, they’re 50 minutes.

0:08:52.9 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:08:54.2 Howard Brown: On the bad, on the traffic day. It’s about an hour and 15, an hour and a half minutes away. So we love our mother. I mean, they’re great Perimeter’s been good and very helpful. As much as they can be in planting a church that is not like it.

0:09:11.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:09:12.6 Howard Brown: And so.

0:09:14.7 Jim Lovelady: There’s.

0:09:15.0 Howard Brown: They have a history of church planting. I mean, they planted like 40.

0:09:17.4 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:09:18.7 Howard Brown: So.

0:09:19.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. They’re a church planting energy.

0:09:20.3 Howard Brown: Yeah. They’ve resourced us well. They do their best to network us and keep us equipped and ready to go. So we really appreciate that. But a lot of the other work, it feels like a scratch plant.

0:09:33.0 Jim Lovelady: So Serge is a missions agency.

0:09:35.8 Howard Brown: Yes.

0:09:36.1 Jim Lovelady: And so just the way that you’re talking about it is like oh, you’re a missionary to this.

0:09:39.0 Howard Brown: That’s how we feel. We feel like missionaries and I’m going to say this, it’s not only a missionary and I talked a lot about the people group like African Americans of this group and this, look, I’m 52 years old, so there are a couple generations already under me that I would consider adults.

0:09:55.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:09:56.9 Howard Brown: Right. And so for me and Kellie going out to Atlanta in this place in scratch planting, we are scratch planting to a new generation.

0:10:06.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:10:08.2 Howard Brown: We’re reaching people and we hear like we have two boys in their early 20s. They’re both in college right now. And to be in a corporate meeting or a, what we call a our Sunday brunches where we just bring people in and hang out and ask them questions like Hey, tell us about your spiritual experience in Atlanta. What’s going on here? And they just shoot at us and we are like safe place. You can use any language you want, just go for it. And they’re like well, I’m like how old are you by the way? Oh, I’m 23. What? 

0:10:38.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:10:38.7 Howard Brown: You’re like my kid’s age.

0:10:40.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:41.2 Howard Brown: And so this is a new thing for me and Kellie, not that we didn’t have kids or young people that age at our church in Charlotte, but beginning to reach them and reach people who are looking for their first church experience or who may not even know the Lord coming. It is like my sons will tell me, dad, don’t use that illustration anymore in a sermon. Nobody knows who that is.

0:11:05.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:11:06.6 Howard Brown: Like n love, I love Ludacris, man he’s in Atlanta, so he and he apparently he lives close to where we are, right. I want to run into him at Target sometime, but I hope I act right. But [laughter], I’m like I use Ludacris in a sermon and my son’s like.

0:11:21.5 Jim Lovelady: Your son’s like don’t do that.

0:11:23.4 Howard Brown: He’s not Ludacris anymore. He’s just, Chris Bridges the actor like [laughter] I’m like no, that’s Luda. That ain’t Chris [laughter] Anyway.

0:11:32.5 Jim Lovelady: That’s cool.

0:11:33.6 Howard Brown: So it’s just so they’re like, dad, that’s not cool. Or that’s not it. Or Should I wear this son? Yeah ’cause that fits you dad, but you wear this, don’t wear what we wear, it’s just… So we’re caught. The point is, we’re caught in between generations too and we’re learning some things at 52 years old where we feel like parents and older brothers and sisters and we’re handing off things to them knowing we’re not going to go as long as they go and we can’t go as deep as they can go into their cultures and their communities. And so a lot of times we stand on outside watching God work in them as they work in their spaces.

0:12:17.4 Jim Lovelady: There’s this shift from being Luke Skywalker to being Obi-Wan Kenobi.

0:12:23.0 Howard Brown: Yes, I feel it.

0:12:24.8 Jim Lovelady: Where you’re like I’m the wise sage who has 25 years of experience. And I’ve got all these eager people that I’m discovering are in big need of direction.

0:12:36.4 Howard Brown: Correct.

0:12:36.8 Jim Lovelady: And big need of wisdom.

0:12:39.9 Howard Brown: Correct.

0:12:40.0 Jim Lovelady: And I mean, y’all and Kellie are still super energized and the work that you’re doing is like I mean, you have the apostolic man, you are like energized to create something new.

0:12:50.3 Howard Brown: Oh yeah.

0:12:51.3 Jim Lovelady: So it’s not like the, pick up the light saber and go fight the battles is gone. It’s still there. But it’s shifted to where you’re looking for all these people and say more about your, the strategy that you had about, you were telling me just now about how you I mean, I called you, you’re like a bishop presiding over this huge area so say more about how you came to that.

0:13:18.2 Howard Brown: Well…

0:13:19.2 Jim Lovelady: Or what it is and how you came to it.

0:13:20.6 Howard Brown: Okay. So you talking about my personal life here like how I got like that or how the actual strategy came to be? 

0:13:28.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh, well, I’m always curious to hear how Jesus moves people personally into things.

0:13:34.8 Howard Brown: Alright. Okay. So this will bring a little bit about how Acts like lives in my heart here.

0:13:38.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh, okay.

0:13:38.8 Howard Brown: Is you know.

0:13:39.4 Jim Lovelady: That’s why this was so easy for you to write.

0:13:41.7 Howard Brown: Yeah. I have a story behind that ’cause that was actually a sermon series that I wrote to an established church to get them encouraged towards missional work.

0:13:49.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh nice. It’s really good. I enjoyed, I’ve enjoyed.

0:13:52.7 Howard Brown: Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

0:13:53.2 Jim Lovelady: Digging in.

0:13:54.5 Howard Brown: I’ll say this, I became a believer in 8th grade through the ministry of my mother. Who became a, let me just use some terms that are familiar to our people that we like to call them. She was like crazy, charismatic, just wherever God was at work and she heard about it, she would go. I went to every type of church. I’m talking cinder-block room with barely a roof on it with one light hanging ’cause God was going to work this woman preaching or whatever like anything going on or, there’s a healing service over here or there’s a revival going on over here. Or wait, we are not going to that church anymore. We’re going to these people’s church where they meeting in their living room or this or that. I mean, I was always like in the beginning of my Christianity, I grew up and was encouraged by church starts in crazy places. Like one of the churches I went to, and this church is where I really began to be called theologically to reform theology was at Agape-Inner City Christian Assembly. They met in a cigar factory.

0:15:04.3 Jim Lovelady: Nice.

0:15:04.3 Howard Brown: In Charleston on the third floor. Like those kinds of under Pastor Dallas there. Those kinds of situations. I don’t know why, but I really liked them even though I grew up as an AME officially. And that’s where my dad’s church is. So historically I was there, but then running around in all these churches. So I always feel like I always felt like there was no space that couldn’t be there couldn’t be a church started in.

0:15:36.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:15:38.7 Howard Brown: And I thought church was really happening, even if you didn’t have 200 people and that God could begin to work in a cinder-block room.

0:15:48.5 Jim Lovelady: Wherever the Spirit was at work.

0:15:49.9 Howard Brown: Wherever the Spirit was at work.

0:15:51.7 Jim Lovelady: You were on the lookout.

0:15:51.7 Howard Brown: I saw it happen. And I’m telling you, it wasn’t the usual suspects like who’s leading this thing? What? I thought it was a seminary trained dude. No, not always. Oh, it’s a guy getting off work, taking off the tie, leading the Bible study. Starting a church. It was a woman like which is foreign to some denominations who felt like there was nothing going on who had to take charge and lead this group, I mean, it was a group of people who felt like their church was going this way and God was saying this, I’m just, so, I had a heart for more about watching where the spirit was working than, it must be here because this big thing is here.

0:16:43.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:44.4 Howard Brown: And so I kind of became a church hopper with her in that way. And so I feel like I’m continuing in heart and mind, even though I’m in a pretty…

0:16:55.7 Jim Lovelady: It’s in your DNA.

0:16:56.8 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah. To start and do this. I mean, my dad started a business and so he has stories by starting some things himself. And so it’s just part of what our family does. And God has blessed that. And so I tend to get bored when things get too established.

0:17:18.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:17:19.9 Howard Brown: And I like okay, this is going to sound kind of weird like I like when something kind of goes a little wrong like [laughter] I’m like if there’s an established church and we’re in it and it’s just stable and everything is going and everybody’s happy.

0:17:36.9 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:17:37.6 Howard Brown: And there’s nothing but Oh no, we ran out of parking space. We gotta get a new building. Yes. Like there’s a new challenge.

0:17:45.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:17:47.4 Howard Brown: And you know not something wrong like evol…

0:17:48.5 Jim Lovelady: So it’s not something.

0:17:50.8 Howard Brown: Or disastrous in the life in the ministry. I’m just saying when God’s calling us or something else, another…

0:17:54.6 Jim Lovelady: When he shakes things up when…

0:17:57.1 Howard Brown: Go to another starting line. Go.

0:18:00.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The moment where things are just kind of, the water is still and everything’s plateaued, you’re like Oh, [laughter]

0:18:04.7 Howard Brown: Right. Right.

0:18:07.0 Jim Lovelady: And then Jesus goes, well, hold on.

0:18:09.8 Howard Brown: Right.

0:18:09.9 Jim Lovelady: Boom and shakes things up and you’re like “sweet”.

0:18:14.2 Howard Brown: Right.

0:18:14.4 Jim Lovelady: Let’s go. So.

0:18:16.0 Howard Brown: So this strategy of movement like churches being planted to start other churches, to equip people to begin to do ministry not as to themselves, but to see other things happen and other churches grow. I mean, this is 25 years old. I mean, this started back when we went to Redemption Fellowship and the vision was to bring folk in to equip them. Like we had a guy, a couple guys sent from other presbyteries to come to Atlanta to learn from Lewis Wilson how to plant these kind of churches to then be sent back to plant in the same place. So we felt when I say we African American Ministries, which is a part of MNA mission in North America, my wife, I was on sabbatical. Here’s the story. I was on sabbatical. My wife is on the staff at African American Ministries and she and that group are called up by Perimeter Ministries and they say, we want to reach these people, this people, we want to reach this side of town. We don’t know what we’re doing. Can y’all help us? 

0:19:21.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:19:22.4 Howard Brown: So Kellie goes out there with Charles McKnight, who’s the current director, I mean coordinator for AAM and Wy Plummer, who’s a former coordinator for AAM. And they say, Hey, let’s do this, let’s do this movement. Kellie’s thinking, God, I think it’s me and Howard ’cause I’m still a pastor in Charlotte on sabbatical.

0:19:46.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, she so started.

0:19:46.1 Howard Brown: She is the visionary.

0:19:46.3 Jim Lovelady: Interesting. Nice.

0:19:47.6 Howard Brown: Don’t, it wasn’t me, it was her.

0:19:50.3 Jim Lovelady: She saw it.

0:19:51.7 Howard Brown: She saw it ’cause she has very similar visionary abilities. And she says, this is, I think this is a good city to start it in. And I see multiple churches and multiple leaders and if it happens in Atlanta’s a good place for it. So she comes back after my sabbatical, she don’t mention anything, she lets me rest. And then she says, Howard, let me tell you, come down with us next time. So I go down and I do my typical thing and I’m thinking.

0:20:17.1 Jim Lovelady: Sneaky.

0:20:18.9 Howard Brown: In the back of my head. No, not in the back of my head. In the front of my head ’cause I think I actually said it like I do most things. I said, man, I hate it for the dudes gotta plant this church. [laughter]

0:20:30.3 Jim Lovelady: You said that? 

0:20:31.0 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah. I’m like you said it gotta start from scratch.

0:20:35.4 Jim Lovelady: You do it to yourself.

0:20:35.5 Howard Brown: I got my own like I’m settled at Christ Central, great people, great church, great missional values. I loved Christ Central. And I was like oh no, they’re looking for somebody who’s a little older, can plant, who knows the denomination can maybe raise up more leaders. Kellie is me and you.

0:21:03.2 Jim Lovelady: And she’s like I know.

0:21:04.2 Howard Brown: I know.

0:21:04.7 Jim Lovelady: I was just waiting for you to [laughter]

0:21:06.4 Howard Brown: Just waiting for you.

0:21:08.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:21:09.6 Howard Brown: We decided to do it. And so we’re hoping that God uses us. I don’t know how long I was thinking this this morning as I was praying for God’s mercy over some things I’m dealing with, and I was like Lord, I don’t know how long you’re going to use me in this capacity, but use me up, right. I don’t know. I think everyone thinks they’re going to last this long, or God’s going to use them this deeply or this way. I don’t know. I used to think that, but now I’m thinking God is going to use us to do this. I just pray. God use us now in whatever gifts you’ve given us and the abilities you, you’ve given us. And so we’re just riding that wave. I think I’m riding. I don’t feel like I’m, I get surprised in like the Book of Acts. I get surprised that these are the Acts of God not the apostles.

0:22:03.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:22:06.2 Howard Brown: Not the people. And we just stand around like boom, something happens and we’re like oh my goodness. Jesus was right. [laughter]

0:22:15.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:22:15.7 Howard Brown: I don’t know if anyone’s ever experienced when like you’ve preached a sermon or you’ve been at a church, or you’ve been talking about Jesus. You’re just pontificating and someone actually comes up and says, Hey, I think I believe.

0:22:30.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:22:32.0 Howard Brown: I want to come to Christ now. And you’re like I don’t know what to do. [laughter]

0:22:38.0 Jim Lovelady: The Spirit’s taking this seriously.

0:22:40.1 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:40.9 Jim Lovelady: Like this is real. Yeah.

0:22:42.0 Howard Brown: Alright. We were in new members’ class, and this is kind of stories I love, and this is what you get in the Book of Acts. Like we’re in new members’ class in Charlotte, and we had a couple who weren’t believers and they had come to the new member’s class, they want to join and we’re explaining the resurrection and Jesus. And you’re going through that class, assuming everybody gets it you’re just speeding through He came, He died, He rose again. And someone says, so you believe Jesus actually bodily rose from the grave? Y’all actually believe that? And I’m like yes, we do. And that’s why it’s powerful and true. I’m like yes. He said, then I’m a believer. [laughter] I believe that.

0:23:37.5 Jim Lovelady: I love it.

0:23:38.4 Howard Brown: Like and it was funny when we go through this interview with him and then we call him on the phone and say, Hey, Sunday, we want y’all to come up, and join. And he has his own colorful language. [laughter] I wish I could say it, but I won’t. He’s like oh crap honey, we get to join the church. Like.

0:23:58.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s amazing, [laughter]

0:24:00.0 Howard Brown: Yeah. I’m like okay. And the same guy like y’all believe this. And so I think the excitement about church planting, the excitement about being a believer who’s sorta, as Paul says in Romans is like walking in the Spirit is you begin to see and experience things and you’re surprised by God.

0:24:26.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:27.9 Howard Brown: And it helps deal with some of that disappointment we often feel of God, let me down, or I’m bored, or the prayer life don’t seem to be working. And so maybe it’s just being selfish about it, but I really, in this work, I love what God does ’cause you see the light. Come on.

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0:24:51.9 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week we meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray. And this week we’re praying for our teams in Spain. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks. Give them joy in their work, in your Kingdom, and in the pleasure of your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, and with the people they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved. Protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness. Restore to them the joy of your salvation. And let your Kingdom come and your will be done in these places just as it is in heaven. We pray in your name. Amen.

0:25:51.2 Jim Lovelady: Now, back to the conversation. You open the book saying, the Book of Acts is the story of Jesus. Like you just said this isn’t the Acts of the apostles.

0:26:00.4 Howard Brown: No.

0:26:00.5 Jim Lovelady: This is the Acts of Jesus. This is the Acts of God. This is my seminary professor said, this is the Acts of the Holy Spirit.

0:26:07.0 Howard Brown: Right. Right. Yes.

0:26:09.1 Jim Lovelady: The Holy Spirit is at work. And so you’re talking about how this is real for right now.

0:26:16.0 Howard Brown: Yes.

0:26:17.6 Jim Lovelady: So at the very top, I just wrote a note. There’s like God is active in the world right now. God is not just an idea or a philosophy but a powerful presence now in the here and now. And you’re just talking about being on the lookout for that. And what’s fun is how we will always be surprised.

0:26:34.1 Howard Brown: You will.

0:26:36.1 Jim Lovelady: We’re on look, we’re on the lookout. Like Lord, Lord, when you move, I want to be ready for it.

0:26:41.6 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:26:42.0 Jim Lovelady: Every time I’ll take people through Sonship and at the end of an hour long session they’ll say something to, in so many words, I think I believe in this.

0:26:55.1 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:26:56.5 Jim Lovelady: And I go, I think I believe in this too. And so this spurring one another on by saying, Hey, do you believe? I think I believe. And then the Holy Spirit goes, oh, you believe.

0:27:07.3 Howard Brown: Wow.

0:27:08.2 Jim Lovelady: And then we go, I think I do believe.

0:27:10.8 Howard Brown: Right.

0:27:12.0 Jim Lovelady: And then the other person goes, I think I believe too.

0:27:13.6 Howard Brown: Right.

0:27:13.9 Jim Lovelady: And then we’re all just surprised, with joy, because God is at work. And God is in the midst. And so you’re just, you’re in the business of being on the lookout for it and helping other people see that.

0:27:26.5 Howard Brown: And I think that, and we don’t want to make it like there it is. Like just sort of, it’s happening in just anywhere out there somewhere. And my point is this like when I preached this sermon and wrote this sermon series, it was not only to missionally go out in the wilderness and see the Holy Spirit work. I think that’s true too. Like in scratch church planting, but even for established churches to live with a degree of expectation that in the authentic coming together Fellowship and community.

0:28:12.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:28:13.0 Howard Brown: In the reading of.

0:28:14.2 Jim Lovelady: Every time we gather.

0:28:15.0 Howard Brown: The Lord’s word, the sacraments, right. And prayer. Like guess what Y’all, God’s Holy Spirit, He’s going to work. Watch it.

0:28:32.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Look for it.

0:28:34.2 Howard Brown: Look for it. Expect it every worship service I did, I’ve always gone and thinking, oh my goodness, what’s going to happen today? We don’t always see it, but it’s never returning void.

0:28:47.2 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:28:48.1 Howard Brown: Done in the name of Jesus Christ, right. And Father, Son, Holy Spirit is at work. And I think that we don’t always document it. And this is where the fellowship, the sharing of our testimonies. What happened this week? 

0:29:02.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:29:03.5 Howard Brown: What happened today and later? 

0:29:04.7 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause I don’t always see it.

0:29:06.5 Howard Brown: You’re like what? 

0:29:07.8 Jim Lovelady: I don’t always see it.

0:29:07.7 Howard Brown: You don’t.

0:29:08.6 Jim Lovelady: But you go, hey, I saw it.

0:29:10.1 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:29:10.5 Jim Lovelady: Let me tell you what I saw.

0:29:12.4 Howard Brown: Yes.

0:29:12.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:29:12.4 Howard Brown: Let me tell you what I experienced. Oh man I didn’t really get that sermon today.

0:29:17.2 Jim Lovelady: Right. A great example. Yeah.

0:29:20.0 Howard Brown: You need to listen to somebody else ’cause.

0:29:20.4 Jim Lovelady: All that music was rough today or whatever.

0:29:22.7 Howard Brown: Right, right. But God is at work when he’s lifted up. I mean, he will draw people to Him. There’s a gravitas, there’s a Holy Spirit work going on. And I think our churches cannot only, not only should this encourage us to plant new churches, but to be renewed in the Holy Spirit for our churches that are wondering is God has God left us. Are we staring at the sky waiting for Him to restore Israel again, to restore the ’cause I think right now the church is going through an identity crisis. The evangelical church, it used to be the big dog on the block especially in the Southeast where we had a lot of power. We had a lot of money. We had a lot of weight to our words.

0:30:18.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. When the culture looks and goes, hey, I value your opinion. And it shifts to, you know I don’t value, I don’t really care about your opinion. Then it shifts again to, you know what, actually, I hate your opinion.

0:30:30.0 Howard Brown: Yeah. I don’t trust y’all.

0:30:30.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:30:31.5 Howard Brown: ‘Cause where y’all go, there’s trouble.

0:30:34.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:35.0 Howard Brown: Look what y’all teamed up with here, here, and here for affluence and this and that and this, and you’re not really giving up this and you’re not really living, whatever.

0:30:44.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:45.0 Howard Brown: I think that we’re still, we’re like the apostles in the beginning of Acts. We’re looking at the sky like.

0:30:53.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh.

0:30:54.1 Howard Brown: Jesus, when are you going to come back and restore all things? When are you going to bring back that social and political power? When are you going to get rid of the evil? 

0:31:02.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:31:03.5 Howard Brown: I mean, these guys think they’re going to die. Their leader’s gone. Only a matter of time between the Jews and the Romans, they’re done.

0:31:14.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s why you lock yourself in a.

0:31:15.8 Howard Brown: Yes.

0:31:15.9 Jim Lovelady: In a room…

0:31:18.0 Howard Brown: And That’s right.

0:31:18.8 Jim Lovelady: Hide out.

0:31:18.9 Howard Brown: And I always wondered when they’re like okay, go to the upper room and then, the Holy Spirit will come. If I’m, then I’m thinking, okay, just like last time, Jesus is going to knock on the door and then he’ll be back.

0:31:30.7 Jim Lovelady: Or maybe he’ll just go right through the door.

0:31:32.3 Howard Brown: Oh, he’ll just go through.

0:31:33.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

0:31:34.7 Howard Brown: Like X-Men.

0:31:35.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s what they’re expecting. Yeah. 

0:31:37.0 Howard Brown: He’ll just go through like I wonder that. What were they really thinking? And I think about some of the things we think.

0:31:45.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:31:48.7 Howard Brown: Maybe he’ll turn the United States into his next Kingdom.

0:31:54.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:31:56.0 Howard Brown: Maybe we’ll get it right here and the other nations won’t, but we will ’cause the church is so powerful and we’re founded on Christian principles kind of thinking when Jesus is saying like my Holy Spirit is coming to bring a new Kingdom.

0:32:08.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:32:10.3 Howard Brown: And it’s going to be incredible. Watch.

0:32:12.3 Jim Lovelady: It’s subversive. Well, so that’s.

0:32:14.5 Howard Brown: It is.

0:32:14.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s one of the things I love about this. How to start a gospel riot.

[laughter]

0:32:20.8 Jim Lovelady: The way that I read through a book, right? 

0:32:21.2 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:32:24.6 Jim Lovelady: I’ll read the table of contents.

0:32:24.7 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:32:24.7 Jim Lovelady: I’ll read the introduction. I’ll read the conclusion. And then I’ll start flipping through.

0:32:28.0 Howard Brown: Okay.

0:32:28.1 Jim Lovelady: And then I’ll dig in. Right. So that I’m like flipping through and it’s like oh, I’ll start, I’ll stop here ’cause it caught me because, and the whole thing. Well, this is what you say. The Ephesians were not. Okay. It’s from Acts 19.

0:32:40.8 Howard Brown: Right.

0:32:42.0 Jim Lovelady: The whole chapter which is crazy When you read Acts 19, go read.

0:32:48.7 Howard Brown: It’s nuts.

0:32:48.9 Jim Lovelady: ‘Go read Acts 19. The Ephesians were not burning, they were not burning anyone else’s stuff. That’ll make sense if you read the chapter. They cause and called for cultural transformation by leading with their own mess. We too will turn the world upside down for the good and for the glory of God when we stop making it our priority to confess and point out the wrong how wrong the world is. And instead, confess that we have believed and lived as if the idols of this world, money, houses, achievements, comforts, and pleasures would make us happy. It subverts everything. And when the Spirit moves, and this is what’s beautiful about this when the spirit moves, it subverts the powers.”

0:33:32.0 Howard Brown: It does.

0:33:32.3 Jim Lovelady: That the status quo powers. And people begin to walk in humility and confess their sins and their brokenness and their need for these idols goes away. And they go, oh, I don’t need that anymore. And that, in that chapter, it totally messes up commerce.

[laughter]

0:33:51.0 Jim Lovelady: You know? 

0:33:53.1 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:54.4 Jim Lovelady: It messes up commerce because it’s not about how this thing silver, whatever it is is for worshiping.

0:34:02.1 Howard Brown: For worshiping people. Yeah.

0:34:04.4 Jim Lovelady: It’s not about Artemis and worshiping this God. It’s the real God. And you say this, I love it. The real God is we don’t have power anymore. You’re causing us to lose money. We will not have that. And so a riot breaks out.

0:34:17.6 Howard Brown: Right.

0:34:17.9 Jim Lovelady: You know, and it’s like hey, look, look. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] talk about that. I love it.

0:34:22.6 Howard Brown: I mean, I think that it would be interesting for us, let me move away from us because I want to be careful here about who’s acting ’cause I don’t want to create a new law or a bondage for people or something to aim toward that. I think like what would happen if God moved on our hearts, where we stop buying it. Okay. I stopped buying the lie that I stopped buying that my worth is here.

0:34:53.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. I Just kind of wake up to, oh, that’s not what I thought it was.

0:34:57.0 Howard Brown: Yeah. I stopped buying this lie that I need to be entertained. I haven’t stopped buying it, by the way, I love movies and entertainment and reels and…

0:35:06.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, where did you wake up to the fact you personally to the fact that that was going on. Because I was telling Kellie last night, I went through church planting assessment in 2014. And during that week it was in Atlanta. During that week, I learned a new kind of repentance. Specifically, I am really hard on myself. I’m very, I’m highly self-critical. So that was a decade ago. For 10 years I’ve been walking in repentance of how self-critical I am. The way that I do that is continually asking Jesus what he thinks about me instead of me asking myself what I think about me.

0:35:43.2 Howard Brown: Wow.

0:35:43.9 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause it’s constantly, you’re not good enough. I need to stop asking you. I need to ask the king of glory. And He says, I love you. You know? Anyway, so I woke up to that 10 years ago. To this day, when this is over, I’m going to drive home and I’m going to be like that voice in my head’s going to be like Jim, you know what you forgot to ask him. You totally forgot to blah, blah, blah. You know? 

0:36:06.1 Howard Brown: Right.

0:36:06.5 Jim Lovelady: You suck. You totally, you messed up on, you know, and I’m going to have to go, Jesus. What do you think about how that conversation went. You know, it just, that’s just.

0:36:17.7 Howard Brown: Wow.

0:36:18.2 Jim Lovelady: Maybe for the rest of my life. That’s the kind of repentance that I walk in.

0:36:20.5 Howard Brown: You’re leaving one there. Yeah.

0:36:22.1 Jim Lovelady: Anyway, so where did you wake up to the like oh, I need to, I don’t need that anymore.

0:36:25.8 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:27.0 Jim Lovelady: And then walking through not needing that anymore for maybe the rest of your life, who knows? 

0:36:31.1 Howard Brown: I think when you kind of grow up in reformed circles and get discipled, you believe that you’re broken like using that term.

0:36:39.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:36:40.6 Howard Brown: You’re broken. I think where I didn’t repent or recognize was I kind of believe this sort of insidious, sneaky lie. That though all was broken, life is still what the broken man can make of it.

0:36:57.7 Jim Lovelady: Wait, say that again.

0:36:58.7 Howard Brown: Life and being successful is still about what the broken man can make out of life, right? 

0:37:04.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:37:06.0 Howard Brown: And so we learn how to be, let me think of a good illustration. We learn how to be great bakers, right? Like we learn how to, now I’m broken, but I’m learning how to cut this and do this and put the pie together. I think we believe, we don’t believe that the pie crust is broken [laughter] It’s not going to happen. It’s not, you’re not going to get a sufficient result that’s pleasing to you or God. So where do you live? 

0:37:48.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:37:49.0 Howard Brown: In that, how do you keep living when the enemy says, hey, you can make this work. Here’s this broken pie crust. You can do it. The world’s not that bad. And if you can’t make it happen, you didn’t try hard enough.

0:38:07.1 Jim Lovelady: Ah. Well, so that’s the result, right.

0:38:10.2 Howard Brown: Because you’re already fine. Yeah. I’m broken. But you don’t believe the world’s broken. You’re not broken so badly that you aren’t seeing things well enough, or that you don’t have the actual power to break, I mean, to fix the rift and what you’re actually working with.

0:38:30.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:38:31.8 Howard Brown: And I think that’s something that we, that takes a different kind of that’s a different kind of freedom, a different kind of faith. Like you said, the ability to forgive yourself for, you know, or not be so hard on yourself in that way where okay, you’re looking through a glass and you’re trying to do a journey, but you’re just totally ignoring the fact that that glass is broken so much. You can’t see your way through, and you’re going to have to trust God to guide you.

0:39:00.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:39:00.9 Howard Brown: And it’ll be by grace that you get on the other side. And if you hit the ditch, it’s understandable that you hit the ditch because the world is broken.

0:39:10.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. No one’s surprised about that.

0:39:11.3 Howard Brown: Yeah. And I think sometimes I expect that if I do all the things the right way, then it’ll fix the broken world. And when it doesn’t go right, I’m not happy with God ’cause I’ve done my part. I think we forget to long for the Kingdom and long for healing and long for God to make miracles out of the broken resources that we have in this world. Much less the broken us. And so I think I’ve done that many times with my work as a pastor. I think this is going to work. Oh if I meet with these people, it’s going to come together. There’s no reason why this shouldn’t work. There’s no reason why it shouldn’t have a 100 people by now. There’s no reason why… Whatever. No. You get out here in this world, you get out here to Atlanta. Look, I’m in Atlanta now. It’s the black Mecca. I got the good message of grace. I’m educated, blah, blah, blah, blah. Got all these things in place… nothing.

0:40:22.5 Jim Lovelady: Still broken.

0:40:23.4 Howard Brown: Broken. And I’m still going to have to take that like man, I have faithfully walked for God. I’ve been ordained in this denomination for 25 years. Lord, I’m ready, right? No, the world is still very broken. And you’re still going to have to trust in me to do amazing things. And so I think that type of faith and call that never ends. And so I’ve had to… I can’t buy it. You can’t buy it anymore. That somehow if I do all the right things, it’s the world will come together and that the only reason it didn’t come together is me, then it kicks back.

0:41:06.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:41:07.8 Howard Brown: The reason it didn’t work is ’cause of you. And so I go to bed thinking, what could I have done different? 

0:41:12.7 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:41:13.0 Howard Brown: And I will hone down on words I use at a gathering and be like “Man, if I didn’t bring that topic up”…

0:41:18.8 Jim Lovelady: I know.

0:41:20.5 Howard Brown: “If I had done this instead.”

0:41:20.9 Jim Lovelady: I know.

0:41:22.4 Howard Brown: No, that person didn’t want to hear it. They don’t want to come back to church. They don’t want to come to Bible study. They want to watch a TV show. They don’t want you, they don’t want Christ. But we did everything right. And so I think some of that, it always kicks back to you failed.

0:41:43.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, Yeah.

0:41:43.5 Howard Brown: God gave you the people. He gave you the message and you screwed it up. You didn’t bake it at the right temperature. You didn’t pull it out at the right time. So that’s why the cake failed.

0:41:53.0 Jim Lovelady: What does Jesus say to you when the cake fails? What’s your prayer like? 

0:41:57.1 Howard Brown: What? Like what do I hear him saying? 

0:42:00.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:01.4 Howard Brown: When the cake falls, I don’t really hear him saying anything in the beginning ’cause all I can hear is myself. So I want to encourage people that hearing Jesus takes time and takes space. Then I hear Kellie, “Quit moping.”

[laughter]

0:42:22.4 Howard Brown: And she’s right. I’m not in the right space.

0:42:25.7 Jim Lovelady: So first you hear you, then you hear Kellie.

0:42:28.9 Howard Brown: Okay, let’s see. Eventually…

0:42:30.8 Jim Lovelady: Then a little bit later, you hear God eventually.

0:42:31.2 Howard Brown: Eventually, I’m going to hear God.

0:42:33.0 Jim Lovelady: I love it.

0:42:35.6 Howard Brown: Let’s say… Oh, this is crazy. This is going to sound wrong. It was never about the cake. It was about you. It was about me. It was about them. It was about my ministry. The cake is great, and next time we do this, you know what you’re going to do? To bring him to me, bake a cake.

0:43:01.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah.

0:43:03.1 Howard Brown: What? No.

0:43:05.3 Jim Lovelady: This is confusing.

0:43:06.6 Howard Brown: We’re not doing the word anymore. I’m not teaching scripture anymore. I’m not going to…

0:43:10.4 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause you want to throw… You’re like “I quit.”

0:43:13.3 Howard Brown: I quit. Cakes don’t work. No. God’s like yeah. You’re…

0:43:16.8 Jim Lovelady: No, no. Go bake a cake.

0:43:17.6 Howard Brown: You’re going to bake a cake. And it could fall. And you know what you realize? It’s about you.

0:43:22.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And that’s how…

[laughter]

0:43:24.5 Jim Lovelady: That’s where.

0:43:25.0 Howard Brown: It’s about me. My love for you is what I meant to say. It’s about my love for you.

0:43:28.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, Yeah. The cake is the call to mission. Go do this thing.

0:43:32.3 Howard Brown: And he tells you the directions. And you obey the directions.

0:43:35.9 Jim Lovelady: And then it all falls through and you go, “What the heck?” And he goes, “Actually this was all a catalyst for you to experience my love in new ways.”

0:43:44.0 Howard Brown: Wow.

0:43:45.0 Jim Lovelady: This is just for you and me. This is for you, to have fellowship with the Lord of the universe because that’s how great and victorious and beautiful our God is, that’s why Christianity is the best.

0:43:57.7 Howard Brown: Right. And think about ingredients and we’ve talked about this. I like food, of course. My wife is an incredible cook. My mom was a great cook. You know, food really is about the love. And I could have baked a cake without love. I just baked it for purpose.

[laughter]

0:44:20.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You baked it for yourself.

0:44:22.4 Howard Brown: I baked it so people would think it was great. And we could get the end we wanted. I used to have an aunt who was an incredible cook and she would cook and you know what her food was? She would just love watching you eat. It was almost like she was eating…

0:44:41.4 Jim Lovelady: Vicariously through…

0:44:42.3 Howard Brown: Your enjoyment.

0:44:44.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:44:45.7 Howard Brown: Like looking at you like she’d just walk around the room. “That tastes good?” Yeah. And she’s like “Mmm.” And she would never get a plate herself.

0:44:54.5 Jim Lovelady: She didn’t eat it.

0:44:55.4 Howard Brown: And this is where like God is worshiped and he’s pleased when things are done in love. And maybe it wasn’t.

0:45:03.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:45:05.4 Howard Brown: Maybe he wanted see people eat a fallen cake. Wow. It worked even though your teaching sucked this time.

0:45:14.3 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:45:15.7 Howard Brown: People got me anyway. I mean, There’s just so many… And again, I don’t think I’m saying anything profound. It’s the same lesson all over again that I’m learning. Especially in a work like church plant or mission work or whatever people are dealing with right now.

0:45:29.2 Jim Lovelady: With this book, you baked a cake, and I think it’s pretty good.

0:45:34.4 Howard Brown: Good, I’m glad.

0:45:35.3 Jim Lovelady: And.

0:45:36.3 Howard Brown: And I’m afraid for you to say that, but go ahead.

0:45:39.4 Jim Lovelady: Exactly, exactly.

0:45:39.5 Howard Brown: I hate it. Like how’s the book going? Do you like it? I’m like I hate when I teach that book ’cause I see like three errors.

0:45:46.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh yeah, totally. And so, what’s I love it. And this, it’s just like a microcosm of what it means to do ministry, where God says, hey, I want you to make something, and you go, okay, I’m going to put my heart and soul into it, and it’s going to become more than it should be in my heart. You know this, you know that it’s going to do that. And God goes, I know, still, write the book.

0:46:08.8 Howard Brown: Right.

0:46:09.0 Jim Lovelady: And you’re like this is too great of a temptation for me, I’m going to fall into idolatry, it’s like maybe they’re going to love me, maybe it’ll become the greatest selling Bible study book of all time you will always see.

0:46:21.4 Howard Brown: No, I wouldn’t know what to do. I would.

0:46:23.8 Jim Lovelady: Well, where are fantasies going? 

0:46:24.5 Howard Brown: Yeah, yeah.

0:46:27.8 Jim Lovelady: And he goes, no, still, I want you to make this, and it’s not going to be perfect, it’s going to be broken, just like everything’s broken, but I am so victorious, and I will use this in so many amazing ways, and you are no longer allowed to be full of self-pity, because you’re free from that.

0:46:46.0 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:46:50.0 Jim Lovelady: And so your response.

0:46:50.1 Howard Brown: That’s sounds good.

0:46:50.2 Jim Lovelady: So your response was great, where I said, hey, I think your book is great, and you’re like I’m glad, you know? 

0:46:57.3 Howard Brown: Yeah. That’s good.

0:47:01.8 Jim Lovelady: Versus like oh, so you really love me, or, oh, so I am worthy of being called a writer, or, whatever other.

0:47:12.0 Howard Brown: Now I might pull on that later.

0:47:12.1 Jim Lovelady: Well.

0:47:12.2 Howard Brown: When I’m feeling bad about myself, you know.

0:47:13.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, totally, ’cause, and it’s not like that’s a surprise to God.

0:47:19.2 Howard Brown: You’re not surprised either.

0:47:20.3 Jim Lovelady: You know? 

0:47:21.4 Howard Brown: Right, right.

0:47:21.4 Jim Lovelady: Well, I mean, I’m not surprised, ’cause I do the same thing, you know? 

0:47:24.9 Howard Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:47:25.6 Jim Lovelady: So where people are like hey, you’re amazing, or, whatever, and I’m like…

0:47:29.3 Howard Brown: I think it’s okay to say, I’m so glad, that’s good.

0:47:32.3 Jim Lovelady: That’s the response. We should be celebrating.

0:47:34.1 Howard Brown: The healthy you said that.

0:47:35.0 Jim Lovelady: You know like I celebrate that you wrote this book.

0:47:39.3 Howard Brown: Thank you.

0:47:40.9 Jim Lovelady: And you can celebrate that you wrote this book, but what we’re doing is we’re just agreeing with the work of God and His Kingdom.

0:47:46.9 Howard Brown: Right, Right.

0:47:47.0 Jim Lovelady: And that’s, funny enough, that’s what the book of Acts is all about.

0:47:51.2 Howard Brown: It is. It is. I mean my hope, and we talked about this earlier, I hope it’s more than a cake. I hope it’s a recipe, because vision-wise, I never, I would never intend that this would be a cul-de-sac, but I pray that God would use this, that it would be more like an interstate like an exit, it would be a means by which people could be encouraged to begin ministries, not just church ministries.

0:48:26.3 Jim Lovelady: But whatever.

0:48:29.3 Howard Brown: Technical church ministries, brick and mortar kind of stuff, but I’m saying wherever and however God may choose to call them and put them, that they would see that the Holy Spirit can make it work there, and so…

0:48:44.7 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause the Spirit is there.

0:48:47.6 Howard Brown: Yes. And so I hope it’s an equipping, not only like on the outside, but on the inside.

0:48:53.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:48:57.8 Howard Brown: ‘Cause, man, there is nothing like seeing God work and you standing back and being like wow. I can’t believe this just happened, ’cause it seemed kind of pedestrian a little bit, how these apostles would be in jail, and the jail breaks open, and they walk out like what? Let’s go back and read that again.

0:49:16.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. No. Like none of this is normal.

0:49:22.3 Howard Brown: And neither is that, if we were to use analogies like neither is that on our heart. People actually believing, that’s crazy.

0:49:33.1 Jim Lovelady: Isn’t that crazy? But, oh, it doesn’t feel normal, but actually the Lord, the resurrected Savior made a new creation where that’s actually the new normal.

0:49:42.7 Howard Brown: Oh. That’s good. It is the new normal.

0:49:45.6 Jim Lovelady: It’s the new normal.

0:49:46.9 Howard Brown: Okay.

0:49:47.0 Jim Lovelady: So the book of Acts is the new normal.

0:49:49.9 Howard Brown: I hope so. I hope people experience that in their life. And I trust God’s going to let us keep experiencing it, you know? 

0:49:57.0 Jim Lovelady: Amen.

0:49:58.9 Howard Brown: Yeah.

0:50:00.0 Jim Lovelady: Well, thank you, my friend.

0:50:01.3 Howard Brown: Oh, I’m so glad you called me here. I’m glad to be here.

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0:50:09.9 Jim Lovelady: How often are we tempted to force God to move in a certain direction that we think is the best way for Him to build His Kingdom? But that’s just a really subtle religious way of building our own kingdom. I think as ministry leaders, we can be very guilty of building our own kingdom in Jesus’s name. We want God to move. We want a God who moves in our world and moves mightily in our lives. But let’s be honest. It’s the kind of God that we want, but we’re kind of scared to get. Do we long for God’s Kingdom, for his healing, for God’s miracles when the way to them is through the cross? I think, nah, I’d rather pick up the scraps of my broken stuff, the broken stuff of my life, and put something together with that. And Jesus knows. He knows my fearful and controlling heart, and he loves me. He knows the resources of his Kingdom are outside of my ability to produce. He’s the one who makes it all happen. Am I willing to relinquish my control? Are you willing to relinquish your control? And it always starts with being honest with where you are, repenting, relinquishing, returning to dependence on your heavenly father. And that’s what you were made for. And we want to help you live in the power of God’s spirit and participate in these kinds of movements of grace. So I have a pile of resources that I want to point you to through links that I’ll leave in the show notes. They are all about following the Holy Spirit into his movements of grace. First I want to send you to a free webinar that we have in our resource library called “Walking with the Holy Spirit”, featuring Josiah Bancroft. And after that, and still in our resource library, go to a blog post called “Walking with Larry” to explore how the Holy Spirit leads us into ministry. And if you’re interested in church planting and how Serge approaches church planting all over the world, I’ll leave a link for that as well. And of course, a link to Howard’s study on the book of Acts. This is a must read. And go back to the podcast archives to hear a conversation that I had with Howard and Kellie last year. Man, so many, so many resources. So go check that out. Leave a like and a subscribe and share this episode with your friends. Lots of ways to continue to lean into whatever the Lord might be sending your way. Lots of ways to be on the lookout for where the Holy Spirit is moving and how you can participate in those movements of grace. So as you go, be on the lookout and don’t be afraid. Jesus loves you and wants to liberate you from the things that will destroy you and bring you with him on mission in His Kingdom. So beloved sent one, go with this blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you and turn his bright eyes to you and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God, life everlasting, Amen.

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