Living Faithfully in Hostile Times

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom.

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0:00:22.6 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome to another episode of Grace at the Fray. When you look at the state of the world today, do you find yourself so incredibly perplexed that it overwhelms you and even saddens you? I think I’ve been experiencing sadness fatigue, but also confusion fatigue. I just want to live a quiet and peaceful life and pursue godliness and holiness in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Is that too much to ask? And I just want peace and prosperity and justice and freedom for everyone. Is that too much to ask? Lord have mercy. For my part, I’ve never seen a more confusing and perplexing time to be a Christian than today. But I love that the apostle Paul says we are perplexed but not abandoned. Well, today’s episode is an exploration of what it looks like to live faithfully in a perplexing culture that is antagonistic toward God while trying to bless that culture as we prepare and wait for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of Christ, where He will bring peace and justice and prosperity and freedom. But how do we live faithfully in the meantime? My guest today wants our cultural engagement to start at the basics, at the fundamentals of our truest identity. There’s no way that we can navigate living lives of wisdom and grace in any cultural context if we don’t remember who we are. Paul Kim is a pastor in San Diego, and he’s written a little book for our Gospel-Centered Life in the Bible series, and this one is on the Old Testament book of Daniel. I’ll have a link for this book in the shownotes, of course. And as I went through this, I was reminded just how wonderful a gift it is that the Lord gave us the book of Daniel. And this book, studying the book of Daniel, is awesome. The question that I want you to think about is this: What kind of grace is required that will enable us to live faithfully in a culture that is not only antagonistic toward the Lordship of Christ, but also does a really good job of pulling us away from faithfulness to Him? And my prayer for all of us is that the Lord would give us grace to be faithful. And spoiler alert, you want to know what grace it is that emboldens and empowers faithfulness? It’s this. You belong to Jesus, and He delights to keep you faithful. So settle into this reality as Paul Kim and I explore the grace of God to live faithfully.

 

0:02:55.5 Jim Lovelady: Paul Kim, welcome to Grace at the Fray.

 

0:02:58.3 Paul Kim: Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.

 

0:03:00.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, absolutely. It’s really fun. We have this series of Bible study books that have been coming out, and I don’t know, like the editors at New Growth Press and the folks at Serge who are working on this, they’re just finding these folks who are writing some really fantastic books. And so I just, I mean, I just really appreciate that you wrote this, and I’ve been sitting with it, and it’s been a lot of fun. So I’m looking forward to hearing you talk about following Jesus and you, you’re a pastor, leading your congregation in the middle of a culture that is antagonistic toward Christianity and just very reflective of what’s going on here in the book of Daniel. But man, who are you? Like, tell me about yourself.

 

0:03:44.6 Paul Kim: Yeah. So I’m Paul Kim. There are lots of Paul Kims, and there are a lot of Paul Kims who are pastors. So I’m one of them.

 

0:03:53.8 Jim Lovelady: You are the Paul Kim.

 

[laughter]

 

0:03:57.0 Paul Kim: Not sure about that, but one of them. My wife, I met her in college at Berkeley, so it’s Paul and Linda, and I always say the easiest way to remember our names, this might be dating myself, is like Paul and Linda McCartney of the Beatles.

 

0:04:04.8 Jim Lovelady: Nice.

 

0:04:09.2 Paul Kim: So we love the Beatles. That’s some of the ways. Oh, Paul and Linda McCartney. Okay. But the Korean American Paul and Linda. So anyways, I grew up in the West Coast in California all my life and I’ve been married 27 years, have three kids. My oldest son is 24. He’s currently in Manchester, England for a church internship out there. We just dropped him off. We’re excited. We’re prayerful. We’re releasing. It was emotional to do that. My daughter is 20 and she has another year in college left before she graduates. And then we have one in the home who’s in high school, Jonah, who is a senior. So we got three kids. We’re almost empty nesters.

 

0:04:45.9 Jim Lovelady: Nice. Yeah, we just launched our oldest and it’s been quite a… I don’t know, it’s crazy. I mean, there’s probably a whole podcast episode on how to be sad and excited for your child all at the same time, all these emotions. Yeah, that’s awesome.

 

0:05:03.9 Paul Kim: Absolutely. And I thought with our oldest son just releasing him, we did that when we did in college into my second, but it still hits you hard every single time.

 

0:05:14.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And what a place to be over in England. But you were born in Hawaii.

 

0:05:19.6 Paul Kim: Yes.

 

0:05:21.4 Jim Lovelady: So, okay. You were born in Hawaii. You are a pastor of a church in San Diego. Tell me you love surfing.

 

0:05:28.9 Paul Kim: I wish I could, but I’d be lying.

 

[laughter]

 

0:05:33.2 Jim Lovelady: Have you gone surfing?

 

0:05:34.9 Paul Kim: I’ve gone only a few times. And I just, I don’t know. I think I tried it, and it just humbled me big time. And my daughter went swimming one time in the ocean, and she stepped on a stingray. And it wasn’t really bad, but there’s just all those factors kind of made me go, I’m not sure about that.

 

0:05:54.6 Jim Lovelady: There’s stuff in the water.

 

0:05:59.1 Paul Kim: There’s stuff in the water. I mean, I still love going to the beach, body surfing and stuff like that, but not into surfing. I wish… it’d be so cool to say that I do, but I want to be honest here.

 

0:06:11.4 Jim Lovelady: Well, I love surfing, but I suck at it. I’m so horrible at it. It’s like, I never tried so hard and did so poorly at two things. Hebrew, the Hebrew language. I studied my butt off, and D for done. My seminary professor was like, look, I’m going to pass you, and good luck to you. You gave a pass shot. That and surfing. I love surfing. I want so badly to be good at Hebrew and at surfing, and I stink at it. But man, San Diego, I’ve never been to San Diego, but I hear the surfing is…

 

0:06:50.7 Paul Kim: It is great. And I think now, as you’re asking that question, when we moved down to San Diego, this is like in the early 2000s, a friend of mine took me out surfing, and I think the only surf board that he had was one of those short boards, and I’d never gone out before. And it happened to be soon after a storm had come. So I was just getting destroyed because it’s hard to balance on a short board, and then I remember I got really sick afterwards. And I think from that first experience, I was like, I’m not sure if I’m going to do this anymore. We now have one of those foam boards, and I don’t consider that surfing. I consider that just standing because it’s really just a long foam board that anyone can stand on, and it’s like the foam waters. So I could say I do that, but I don’t really think that’s surfing.

 

0:07:37.7 Jim Lovelady: I’ll take it. I’ll take it. If you are standing on anything and the wave is pushing you, I’ll take it. It counts.

 

0:07:45.2 Paul Kim: Okay, then I’m a surfer then.

 

0:07:45.9 Jim Lovelady: Yes.

 

0:07:49.1 Paul Kim: Ok, I’m a surfer then.

 

0:07:49.0 Jim Lovelady: You’re instantly a better surfer than I am.

 

0:07:51.3 Paul Kim: There we go.

 

0:07:52.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, my son is instantly a better surfer than I am. He’s 15, and he just got up, and he stood up, and then he fell down, but I was like, wow, that’s better than I ever did.

 

0:08:05.1 Paul Kim: There we go.

 

0:08:05.1 Jim Lovelady: Anyway, yeah, I have some horror stories on surfing too. I love it, but it’s definitely scary. You planted the church that you’re currently at, and you’ve been there for what? How many years?

 

0:08:13.4 Paul Kim: So it’s been… We moved down to San Diego in 2001, so it’s been 24 years. And our journey has been we moved down to San Diego to plant the church, and it was called Harbor Presbyterian Church. And the person who started it was Dick Hoffman, who was the executive pastor with Tim Keller. So Dick was sort of a movement leader, and we moved down to San Diego to plant the church but really to learn under his mentorship. So that was, I would say, like chapter one of our journey. And then in 2013, our church merged with another church, and we became Redeemer Presbyterian Church. So it’s like in the span of like almost 10 years. We had the first 10 years with Harbor, the second set of 10 years with a merged church called Redeemer, and now we’re in the third decade in this ministry.

 

0:09:03.1 Jim Lovelady: That’s awesome. I mean, in this day and age—and we’ll talk more about kind of this day and age, but in this day and age, it’s kind of rare to see pastors in a place for a really long time. And it is kind of a… It’s a bit of a dream for… Every pastor longs to have their people that they’ve served with and done Kingdom ministry for, with, for a long time. And so when I saw that, I was just like a quick read of your bio. It was like, oh, this is awesome. This is like… I’m sure that this is what you want. You love your people.

 

0:09:39.7 Paul Kim: Absolutely. And I think a couple of years ago, I did my first wedding for like… From 20 years ago, one of our friend’s sons was two years old, and then I just did their wedding. And so it just blew me away to go, wow, time has gone by, but what a joy and blessing that is. It also humbled me because I’m now sitting at the table where all the old folks are all the people and all the younger people. So I’m like, yeah, that’s me. I tend to think I’m more cool than I am, but no, I’m not. I’m in that other section of stage of life too. But that was pretty remarkable for me to just think about and go, God, you’ve been so faithful. I don’t deserve this. It’s by your grace. And I have the privilege of walking with people for these many years. What a joy it has been.

 

0:10:30.1 Jim Lovelady: Ok, so I keep teasing this and I’m not ready for you to jump in yet, but it is how do you lead your people through the longevity of ministry in the midst of  a culture that is antagonistic towards christianity where christianity has become more and more on the margins? But don’t answer that yet, I still want to know. How did you come into partnership with Serge and how did you meet Serge folks? And how did you end up speaking at the PCA Serge luncheon… I may post that as a bonus episode because that was a fantastic sermonette? What would you call it? Homily?

 

0:11:09.5 Paul Kim: One of those, yeah. So as I just mentioned, when we moved down to San Diego, Dick Hoffman was the movement leader. And Harbor was one church with multiple congregations. So each of those congregations were led by church planters. So I was one of them. But when I came down to San Diego and learning from Dick, Dick obviously came out of Redeemer with Tim. But he would always mention Jack Miller, like over and over again. And so he would talk about his time when he was serving with Jack and all these grace renewal stories. So the things that he would say, the way that even he modeled the gospel was such a powerful mentorship for me. And I’m so grateful for that. So I think those were kind of the beginning stages of understanding about Jack Miller, the significance of Sonship, and seeing it modeled in his life and even in terms of what that looks like in ministry. From there, Scotty Smith is also a dear friend and close partner to Serge ministry too. And he and Darlene have been hugely influential to me and to my wife, Linda. And also when I just go to General Assembly, I just so enjoy the Serge folks. The aroma of grace and like, you’re my people. I’m so thankful for your ministry. I’m thankful for the ways in which Jesus is reflected. And so I’m just so thankful to be a part of it. So I think through different connections I’ve had a chance to meet with in Serge, and it’s been a huge blessing.

 

0:12:38.6 Jim Lovelady: Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, I mean, it’s mutual. It’s really fun. It’s just kind of like the partnership in the gospel kind of stuff. And these moments where you write a book for our series, and it ends up where we get to be on a podcast together. And I get to meet you, and we get to talk about what the Lord is doing. It’s just, I mean, I love my job. It’s fun.

 

0:13:02.7 Paul Kim: It’s awesome. Oh, man. Like you said, it’s such a blessing.

 

0:13:06.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Okay. All right. So here’s where I want to go. I was thinking about how, like in the 1950s and ’60s, the church in the west, the cultural question was like, how do we bring the gospel to bear to a culture that kind of knows, at least has some sort of recognition of their need for God? Some sort of recognition. How do we bring the gospel to these folks? And so it’s like the height of evangelicalism with the Billy Graham movement where all Billy Graham has to say is, God loves you. Like Bill Bright has to say, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, but you’ve messed it up. But Jesus died and resurrected, and so follow Him. And that ignited revival. Well, we quickly move into a post-christendom kind of culture that’s like the culture looks at the church and goes, whatever, fine, meh. But now we live in a culture that is not… The culture doesn’t look at us and go, meh, whatever. The culture looks at us and they go, you guys are messing everything up. You guys are part of the problem. You guys are evil. The world would be a better place if the church wasn’t there. And that’s kind of the culture in the West that we live in. And there are a lot of good reasons for why we’re getting that pushback, a lot of humbling reasons. So I’ve got that swirling around in my mind when I come to your study in the book of Daniel. So it’s like, okay, well, what does it look like to lead a church? What does it look like to lead individuals in your church in such a way where, yeah, we’re going to be faithful to God even as we live on the margins, and we’re not afraid of that. It’s actually a catalyst for us to experience the gospel. I don’t know. That’s kind of where my mind is. There’s a question in there somewhere. I want to hear you talk about what it means to live faithfully when the church is on the margins.

 

0:14:51.2 Paul Kim: Yeah. There’s a lot in there.

 

0:14:54.0 Jim Lovelady: Go ahead. Jump on.

 

0:14:55.5 Paul Kim: Yeah. So let me just kind of share some thoughts in light of what you shared. I think Augustine talks about how there’s a city of man and the city of God, and the city of man can be characterized by love of self, and then the city of God is about love for God. So wherever, whatever culture you might be, it could be eastern, western, way back or now, postmodern, there’s still true dynamics of living for self, love of self versus love of God. And I think that is definitely in light of San Diego, Southern California culture. Those are some of the challenges to keep in mind. I think the idea of exiles is so relevant, and part of the reason why I studied the book of Daniel was it really came out of a sermon series that I did for our church. And as I was studying the book of Daniel, I was like, oh my gosh, this is an ancient book, but it’s so relevant because it speaks about how do you live in a world that doesn’t believe what you believe, that doesn’t hold the same vision and values. And I’m seeing people in our church, and when we forget the gospel, you could become super angry and self-righteous, or you could live in great fear. And we have both of those, and truth be told, when I’m forgetting the gospel, I can move on either side of that. I can vacillate back and forth. So I love that God’s Word in the book of Daniel just kind of continues to center us on, like, what does that look like, and what does it mean to make your core identity found in who you are in Jesus and let that shape your work, shape who you are, and give you the sense of grounding and conviction, and yet you’re not a jerk. Because when you look at Daniel, he lived with conviction because he was rooted in his identity, and he understood who he was. And it says in chapter 1, that “he resolved.” There’s a sense of conviction. And that’s challenging for some of our people in our church to go, look, do you experience any pushback whatsoever? Or is your faith so comfortable? Because the idols of comfort in San Diego is so prominent? So it’s a good challenge and push to go, wait, is there some kind of pushback because of my faith? So the gospel has to go there. But then the other side, there’s people who are all up in arms and fearful. And that fear is leading to, we got to fight and kind of get into this culture war in a way where Jesus is not at the center. And like, wait a minute, what does it mean to be people of conviction in God’s word? But Daniel was also a vessel of blessing in Jeremiah 29:7, right? Seek the peace and prosperity of the city. So I’m just finding out that as, of course, the gospel in all of its richness just applies all across the board. And in our church, we’ve got the whole gamut of people wrestling through what does it look like to live as exiles in the city of man, but to be citizens of the Kingdom of God.

 

0:17:49.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. There’s an individual relevance to that where, like you mentioned: I’ll fall into self-righteousness or I’ll fall into fear. But then there’s also like this church culture tendency. Every church has this tendency of like, oh, this church tends to fall over here in self-righteousness. This church tends to fall over here in fear. So, yeah, what does it look like? Like, what did you discover? What did you discover as you were leading your… As you were preaching through this to your congregation? What did you discover were like, aha moments or maybe even what was the most surprising thing that you yourself discovered?

 

0:18:24.9 Paul Kim: That’s a great question. I heard someone talk about the illustration of an onion and an onion has all these layers. And as a christian, the center core has to be your identity in Jesus Christ. And yet we’ve got all these other layers around it. And those are often good things. It could be family. It could be politics. It could be so many different things of what’s around there. But if you confuse the layers with the core, as followers of Jesus, you’re going to move into idolatry. And so, what does it mean to be always remembering your identity and who Jesus is as you live out your faith in Babylon? And so, that’s something just for me as I think about as I go through this with all the different challenges of what culture in America is like in Southern California, how there are similarities to that in Babylon, which was characterized by pride. And you see that in Daniel chapters, what is it, four and five with Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, love of self. Like, how does all that kind of that influence, how does it then shape us back into our identity in terms of who Jesus is?

 

0:19:43.8 Jim Lovelady: Okay, so you said Babylon a couple of times, and there may be people who have never read the book of Daniel and have not yet purchased this book yet. So, what do you mean by Babylon?

 

0:19:56.6 Paul Kim: Yes, that’s a great question. I think about we’re all God’s people because our sin, we’re living in exile from the garden. Sin enters the world, we’re cast out. So, there’s the idea of living as exiles. And the idea is that Jesus has come into our world of exile, and He has come to bring us home. But the life that we live in now in this world until Jesus brings us home, I guess I would say there’s a place of saying you can call it Babylon wherever we are because even in 1 Peter, there’s a part where Peter’s writing and says, she who is in Babylon greets you. And he’s speaking to christians who are in Rome, right? And in that context, they’re spread out, the diaspora, and they’re living out their faith, and they’re being persecuted. He’s like… he uses that word, and he talks about being exiles. So, just that language of us understanding as Christians, we are not home. We are exiles. And in many ways, until Jesus comes and makes all things new and brings us home, life in this world in many ways is Babylon.

 

0:21:00.5 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah, and coupled with that, you quoted in Jeremiah, we are committed to the welfare of this city. We’re committed to the welfare of Babylon. And that’s really… It’s weird for me to even say it that way, even now, really weird to like actually be committed to that when it’s so easy to be self-righteous. And that’s where those two categories are really helpful for me. Very easy for me to be self-righteous of like, oh, shaking my finger at Babylon. Or it’s very easy for me to be afraid. Like I sent my daughter off to college. It’s easy for me to be afraid of the influence of Babylon.

 

0:21:43.5 Paul Kim: Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are both definite challenges. I think that’s why when I look at how in this book, and you have Daniel, obviously Daniel points us to the greater Daniel, to Jesus. But you see both this, the way that his faith is lived out is with such conviction, and yet he’s living with such blessing. And I just go, Dick Hoffman, said this to me, and often says, in the world, you have people who are proud, confident, but not humble, or they’re humble, but not confident. But in the gospel, you are both humble and confident. And I think that’s kind of getting to this that strikes me about our identity in Jesus. We’re a humble people because we are people saved by grace. We’re not self-righteous. We shouldn’t be self-righteous because there’s nothing we’ve done. And yet we’re also confident because the whole book of Daniel reminds us that our Lord is sovereign, and Jesus wins. And because nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, and that is our anchor because of God’s grace, we can be confident people, secure in his love while living out our faith and saying, Lord, I’m going to live for you. But I also am humble because I’m saved by grace. And I think that gospel reality that shapes all those parts that I can go back and forth in is really remarkable.

 

0:23:16.4 Jim Lovelady: So what do you say to a congregant who says, I love the idea of being confident. I want to be confident. I love that idea. Yeah, help me to be more confident, all the how-to books that they’ve read, the self-help books, whatever. But I don’t want to be the humble part. And I don’t really see how those two work out. What do you say to a person who says that?

 

0:23:37.7 Paul Kim: Yeah, I would say what, from my own testimony, say, one, I can relate to you. But my struggle, and I need to be reminded of, is that the paradigm for christians is not good people versus bad people, but humble people versus proud people. And I think that’s significant. And when I forget and I confuse those things, I can easily turn into, we’re the good guys, and everyone else in Babylon are the bad guys. And the good guys, as if there’s something about my religious commitment or because of my faith, that makes me self-righteous. And that’s a paradigm that takes you away from Jesus. Because it takes you away from the gospel. Our goodness gets in the way. So I think that’s where I would go. It could be that you’re confusing good and bad paradigms with humble and proud, because when we look at the scriptures, we’re confronted by the fact that no one is good. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am a sinner, and I am only saved by the grace of God. And the reason why Daniel was in exile, the reason why we’re all in exile, is because of our own sin. So that’s really humbling. And to know that by the grace of God is where we stand, I think we just need to remember that again and again. So those categories, I think that’s a helpful reminder for me, and I would share that with people.

 

0:25:07.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, I had never thought about that until you said it. And it’s really easy for me to go to even turn humble versus proud and bring it back to humble good, proud bad. And you’re like, no, no, don’t mix these categories. Humble is humble. Proud is proud. And it just kind of highlights my own propensity to look for whatever, in whatever way I can possibly build myself up. I can say, look how hard I’m working at becoming a humble person. See how good I am? And it’s just like all of that sabotages dependence on Christ and the work of the gospel. So yeah, these categories are great.

 

0:25:54.1 Paul Kim: 100%. Yeah, and the other thing I would add to just reflecting on the book of Daniel is that humility really comes about when you really get captured by the greatness of God. When we start looking into this world in Babylon, and it’s easy to go good, bad, and all that stuff, again, those paradigms are helpful. But when Daniel has these visions of the Lord and his grandeur and power, he falls down as though he’s dead. And so I do think the other challenge for me is that humility comes from having that accurate view of God’s power and greatness. It’s so much more than we can even fathom or imagine. And to understand that and Lord, if I’m realizing that, that’s super humbling.

 

0:26:51.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Okay, so what’s your favorite story in this book? As you were studying it, what’s your favorite one?

 

0:26:57.4 Paul Kim: My favorite one is Daniel 3 with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. It’s a well-known account, right? Fiery furnace. But the reason why I would say, quote-unquote, it’s my favorite is because it surprised me as I was studying the text. As those who are listening in, as many of you know, they were thrown into the fire because Nebuchadnezzar, put this huge golden statue. Everyone’s supposed to worship it. But when you study the text, it says 9 times that the statue had to be set up. So it’s like this idea that Daniel’s writing this huge thing, you’ve got to worship it, and it’s like, oh, the statue that had to be set up. It had to be set up. It had to be set up. And then it talks about this language of repetition, and the command is made that when the horn, the pipe, the trigon, and the bagpipes, I don’t even know if there’s bagpipes, that day, but I think it said that in the ESV version, and it says when all the sounds go on, it’s everyone is to fall down and worship. And it says it over and over again, and it made me think of like those cartoons or that silliness of like, oh, when everyone’s like playing and everyone falls down, and it’s almost as if Daniel’s trying to tell us that all of this is a farce.

 

0:28:12.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:28:13.6 Paul Kim: That if you can look behind, Oz, and there’s levers being pulled, it gives you a perspective that as intense as the persecution is, the idol is a setup, and there’s just kind of this perspective in it that you just go, oh, okay. So I just thought that was significant, and it made me chuckle in the midst of living in a world of deep suffering. I don’t want to downplay that, but it just gave perspective. And then of course, when they’re thrown into the fire, there’s another in the fire with them. But that phrase, Lord, our God can deliver us, but if not, and I just love that. And as Christians, we should be praying for deliverance. Absolutely. I’m like, yes, I pray that all the time for people who are hurting and suffering, “but if not” is trusting in the Lord. And that phrase reminds me that we are not to focus on the outcome, but in the gospel obedience. Like Lord, because of your great love, because of this, I so much want the outcome and I’ll pray and trust in you, but I don’t know these things, but I’m going to call to be faithful. And not only that, you are with me in that fire. So those are just some of the significant parts in that chapter that just was like, wow, those kind of aha moments for me, that would be my response.

 

[music]

 

0:29:39.7 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we here at the headquarters in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We gather on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for our teams in Guatemala. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks, give them joy in their work in your Kingdom and the pleasure of your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children and with the people they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved, protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness and restore to them the joy of Your salvation and let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in these places just as it is in heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now, back to the conversation. 

 

0:30:37.1 Jim Lovelady: The book of Daniel is so fun, right? Well, the first half. The second half is like, what?

 

0:30:40.2 Paul Kim: Intense.

 

0:30:43.1 Jim Lovelady: What just happened? Now for something completely different and how we’re like, whoa. The theme of what you’re talking about is all throughout where it’s like, hey, look behind the curtain. I’m going to give you, and the second half is that, right?

 

0:30:54.0 Paul Kim: Yes. So 100%.

 

0:30:54.9 Jim Lovelady: What’s really going on?

 

0:30:57.6 Paul Kim: Yeah, that second half, so many times when we go through a study or when people preach through it, they kind of get to the first half and then they’re done. But going through this study and the second half, just that part also blew me away. You could say it’s sort of communicating what’s life like after exile. And one commentator said to understand that this frightening visions that it’s there’s some intense stuff. You’re like, what is this? One writer said, to understand it, it’s more like a picture book, not a puzzle book.

 

0:31:31.5 Jim Lovelady: That’s good.

 

0:31:31.8 Paul Kim: And one of the dangers is when you think if it’s a puzzle, you’re trying to find out like, where in the jigsaw puzzle does it fit? How do we interpret it and all that stuff? And certainly we want to study the Bible and understand those things. But a picture book, you don’t go into like lots of details. It’s to give you the big picture. And so much of the times it’s the second half is not meant to give us nightmares, but to calm our nightmares. And I read somewhere that for persecuted christians in the world, the two books that are like so significant for suffering christians, Daniel and Revelation. And those are like the most intense with imagery and vividness, but it’s because it reminds them, yeah, this world is horrific and evil. And that’s our experience. But Jesus wins, and He’s even greater. And that second half has that theme. God is sovereign. Kingdoms come and go. It doesn’t look like it from our lens at times, but from God’s vantage point, they come and go. Suffering has an expiration date, and God is going to win and triumph. So therefore, we can have hope and be faithful. And that whole second half just hits those themes again and again. And it encourages us as we live in exile and when we feel the weight and the suffering taking place in a broken and sin-filled world.

 

0:32:53.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, there’s a sense in which the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel, for me, are very convicting when I don’t feel the sense of like, oh, thank God these are in the Bible. Because I go, oh, I wonder just how much am I and my people that I do life with, how much are we just actually participating in Babylon? If I’m not feeling that sense. But then the Lord, in his mercy, and it’s really hard to say this, but allows for there to be hardship where I’m like desperate. And that’s where there’s this shift where I look at what’s happening behind the curtain that’s been revealed, the apocalyptic literature of Daniel and Revelation is like, hey, look behind the curtain. See, I love that you talked about the Wizard of Oz. It’s like, hey, see what’s going on back there. And then when you see what’s going on, you’re not as intimidated because, I don’t know, it’s like the veil has been drawn back.

 

0:33:58.7 Paul Kim: Exactly. Right. And these books, like Daniel, God uses to strengthen our faith and encourage us to remind us of that. And therefore, we can have hope. So I 100% agree with you and so thankful for these two books that have that such apocalyptic kind of genre behind it. And again, picture book. It’s hard, like, we can have a long talk about what this might mean, or Daniel chapter 9 means. And yes, there’s different ways that we want to be faithful to scripture, scripture and interpret scripture, but let’s not miss the big picture behind it, that God is sovereign. And that gives us hope to endure.

 

0:34:40.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite, I guess, right now, one of my favorite stories in Daniel is the one in chapter 10, where Daniel’s been praying and fasting, and he gets this vision. And then the angel comes. And I can’t remember all the names of what angel was fighting, whatever, there was a messenger that comes and says, Yeah, I got here as quickly as I could. But there’s a war waging in the heavenly realms in the spiritual realm that I just want to let you know about. And it’s like, wait, what?

 

0:35:15.8 Paul Kim: Totally. And I, coming from a reformed perspective, it kind of challenges the ways I can box certain things in. But I love that passage, too. And an angel says, like, I was I forget the exact place was like, Hey, Daniel, because you prayed, I’m here.

 

0:35:34.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That one. Talking about the power of prayer, right. And it just says that there are realities of strongholds in people in nations and in this world. And just like, okay, wait, oh, my gosh, Ephesians 6 is really that’s right. There’s a spiritual battle going on. And to think about that text and go this angel says, Daniel, because you prayed, I’m here. And again, in the midst of God’s sovereignty, it’s almost saying the other way, if you had not prayed that I would not have been here. Of course, God’s sovereign over it all. It just makes me just realize the significance of prayer. And as a way of seeing that happen and engaging in that way. Yeah. You had mentioned prayer earlier when we were talking offline. So say more about say more about your discovery. As you’re studying.

 

0:36:26.6 Paul Kim: I think that’s what I was super challenged by is Daniel, who’s standing firm in adversity, and his deep prayer life. And it’s not again, not a formula, because if you pray more than, all that stuff. But you see how he lived out his faith in this in Daniel chapter 6, the account of the lion’s den, then the call to not worship anyone else, but the king and Daniel prays three times a day. And you just see his life marked and shaped by prayer. I was recently listening to a podcast. And it was talking about Tim Keller. And in the podcast, the person sharing asked him a question. After all those years of faithful ministry, do you have any regrets? And he said that Tim gave a response with no hesitancy whatsoever. He said, Yes, I wish I would have prayed more. And I think about Daniel praying three times a day, again, not legalism. But you see that it shaped his life, like his life, his daily activities, going about was framed by these moments, morning, afternoon and evening with the Lord. That’s so challenging. Think about it that way. And then when you see the different ways of prayer, like the spiritual battle in Daniel chapter 10, but in Daniel chapter 9, he’s repenting on behalf of the people. And there’s this example of like, invocation, confession and petition. He talks about Lord, this is who You are, and we have sin. And so therefore forgive and he is praying of repentance and confession. Long story short, all that reminds me just that prayer is covenantal. It’s relational. It’s not transactional. But that deep prayer life that you saw it kind of in Daniel 6, that is framed his life. But then you see these different moments of him praying spiritual stuff his own confession, the priority of it and the emphasis of that, while living in Babylon, and then the theme of standing firm in adversity, to have courage and conviction over compromise and yet to be a blessing, like there’s no way we could do that any of our strength, of course, it’s by the grace of God. But you see this man marked by prayer and dependence on the Lord, that was super challenging.

 

0:38:52.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, it’s really good. So as you were prepping this, as you were studying the book of Daniel, referring back to your sermons that you had preached to your congregation, where was there like a major slog? Where was it just like this, not necessarily the slog of writing, like writing is hard. And it’s not that it’s more like, where did you encounter what Daniel would say is spiritual warfare? Where did you encounter your own participation in sin? I say it’s… When you say it that way, it sounds like, Oh, geez, dang. But I mean, for me to be surprised about that presupposes that pastors are really good people.

 

0:39:38.0 Paul Kim: Yeah. There are…

 

0:39:41.1 Jim Lovelady: Where did you really wrestle with Jesus? I’ll say it that way. Where did you wrestle with Jesus?

 

0:39:45.7 Paul Kim: Yeah, a lot, but two I’ll share that come to mind. The first one is with regard to the account of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar on pride. And Daniel comes to warn Nebuchadnezzar and he says in that moment when he’s looking around, he says that phrase, is this not the great Babylon, which I have built by my own hands? And that’s so humbling because we all do that. I do that. Is this not the great so-and-so? Like, is this not like the church here that I planted? Is this not like the things that I do, the sermon that I’m preaching? Like, there’s so many different ways I’m prone in my own heart to do that and to think that all the time in ministry and repenting of that and to see just what happens in pride, the pride of self, right? Making it about yourself. And that’s not just only about like, I am great, but self can also be like struck by like, I am great. But then when someone else says you are not that great, or what if I’m not great? The anxiety, I have to prove myself, or in my failures, like, no, I’m not great. Like all those things are pride. I think I tend to think of pride, like, isn’t this like, look at the success behind it. And definitely that captures my heart in terms of like my conviction, but just a pride of even the center focus on myself when I think about with people, if I don’t get the praise, like saying, I’m hearing like, I’m not that great, or my own fear, like I better show up, this sermon better come together. What if I’m not great? So I just think that part was super challenging and very personal to my own struggle with pride and my need for Jesus in the gospel. The other one is in the beginning in chapter 1, when we read about Daniel and his friends coming to Babylon, their names are changed and the shaping influences of language, literature, and lifestyle. I was really struck by the fact that culture is not neutral and we are formed, we are being formed and shaped by this world. And in San Diego, that is the idols of comfort as a big one. So, and it’s kind of like a frog in a kettle type of thing. Like when Daniel’s name was changed, my name might not be changing from a biblical name to a Babylonian name. My name is still going to be the same, but there’s something about the language and the literature that I’m breathing in and just realizing I’m being formed and I might not even realize it and how important it is for me to acknowledge my need for the gospel and to be counter-formed that there’s a misshaping place in my heart and in the way I see things and then how God’s word needs to reform me and reshape me in ways that I might not even see it. That was pretty striking to me for another example of just my own awareness and need for Jesus.

 

0:42:52.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah. The frog in the kettle, slowly you were being boiled to death.

 

0:42:56.7 Paul Kim: Yeah.

 

0:42:58.2 Jim Lovelady: The imagery is really good and it’s interesting you have a name change. When you said that, I thought, okay, where was my name changed? Oh, when they put reverend in front of my name, my name changed.

 

0:43:09.7 Paul Kim: Right.

 

0:43:10.4 Jim Lovelady: And that has major potential to do the exact thing, the first example, to build up my pride so that I’ve got my culture that says, hey, become an ordained pastor. The temptation to believe that when you become an ordained pastor, you become lovable, you become respectable, you become worthy of respect. I’m going to change your name and in that name change is all sorts of temptations to acquiesce to what eventually actually reveals itself to be pride, the beast within that if you just feed that, you just let that be, you were going to move away from being image of God and you’re going to turn into like an image of a beast. There is this transformation that Nebuchadnezzar goes through that I love that story because when he just follows it, it takes over. It takes him over and he becomes unrecognizable.

 

So he moves from king to beast. The beauty of it is like repentance moved him, healed him.

 

0:44:26.3 Paul Kim: Totally. Yeah, I think about how God could have taught him a lesson in so many different ways and what a bizarre account. But somehow when pride makes you step on other human beings and you think you’re better than others, you become less human. You become like a wild animal with instincts of devouring and taking over out of control. So what a powerful picture of like not only of like, wow, that’s Nebuchadnezzar, but like I act like that. Like how am I prone to act like that becoming defensive and like guarded and trying to… When my own sin or pride gets in the way and like you just mentioned, it says that he looked up and was healed. That looking up is just, he didn’t then pursue a program of moral reformation. He didn’t do these things to commit to it, but it was like, Lord, help just like that. And he got gospel sanity back. So I just think that’s wow, what a powerful account of just pride in Babylon, my own heart.

 

0:45:34.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. What was Daniel’s name changed to?

 

0:45:38.4 Paul Kim: It doesn’t share their names, I don’t think, I have to look it up again. I don’t think he tells that their names were changed, but it says they were given Babylonian names. So I think Daniel means something like who is like God or El means God.

 

0:45:50.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:45:51.1 Paul Kim: And all of his friends to Shadrach. And so it changed to a Babylonian name. So somehow in some way you just see that name, especially in the Bible, there’s something significant about name changes. And so Babylon saying we’re here to change your name to make you drawn to be like this world. And I just think about how that is true for all of us where our names can be reverend or something else or titles and how that can deviate and take us away from our identity in Christ.

 

0:46:26.0 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah. I mean, the temptation is, hey, Jim, do all of these things and your name will be Jim Awesome.

 

0:46:33.2 Paul Kim: Yes. All that.

 

0:46:35.5 Jim Lovelady: Yes. Jim Amazing. It would be some sort of some sort of this is the false promise of Jim Confident. You know, Jim Not Afraid. Jim Self-Righteous. Jim, all these things, major temptations of this world. But the reason I ask is because I was reading Daniel 10, like the story that I really love. And the angel greets Daniel, says Daniel greatly beloved.

 

0:47:04.8 Paul Kim: Yes.

 

0:47:06.2 Jim Lovelady: And it’s just like, what’s your real name? What’s your real name? Is Paul Kim greatly beloved.

 

0:47:12.6 Paul Kim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. Exactly. Like our name is son of God, child of God, loved by God. To understand that then is there’s only one name that is the name above all names and that’s Jesus. And how remarkable that Jesus, you know, gives us a name in his household and family.

 

0:47:36.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:47:37.2 Paul Kim: That’s greatly beloved. So good.

 

0:47:39.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. So Daniel is the dude, Daniel, not just the book, but the dude was amazing. Like you look at the Bible and whenever… We’re trained to be kind of like, hey, watch out that you want to be like any Bible character, because have you really looked at these guys? All of them are horrible people. If you look really closely. Who do you want to be like? Like, find somebody? You want to be like Samson? Why? You want to be like King David? Why? So it’s very easy to pick all of those people apart, but not Daniel. Yeah. Daniel’s amazing. So you said earlier, like, hey, there is a better Daniel. Jesus is the better Daniel. But all right, so everything that Daniel does is like, hey, you should do this. I mean, there’s even the Daniel diet. The Daniel diet.

 

0:48:32.4 Paul Kim: Right. Yeah.

 

0:48:32.9 Jim Lovelady: I’m still going to be like Daniel. I’m going to eat like him.

 

0:48:36.3 Paul Kim: Yeah.

 

0:48:36.8 Jim Lovelady: Can I eat like him and still have my Spanish tempranillo wine? Can I do that?

 

0:48:41.4 Paul Kim: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

 

0:48:44.0 Jim Lovelady: So talk to me about… Daniel is amazing. Talk to me about what it means, not just that Jesus is the better Daniel, but how that transforms my life.

 

0:48:59.1 Paul Kim: That is such a great question. I think for me, when I think about Daniel and Jesus, the greater Daniel, once we say, be like Daniel, we’re moving towards the emphasis being on our faith, the amount of our faith, instead of resting in Christ. And that is really not good for our hearts and our souls, because it will lead to two potential outcomes. One, it could lead to a form of pride or selfishness and self-righteousness. Look how much better I am, or why can’t you be a Daniel? And we can, if I’m a father, I can look at my kids and go, why can’t you step up your game? As a pastor, I’ll be like, what’s wrong? Just get it done. So, why can’t you have faith? So that, it just becomes a self-righteous form of scolding or looking over someone with pride, or it can lead to a sense of despair, like, wow, I’m wilting under this stuff. I’m not like Daniel. And so you’re beating yourself up. So it’s not salvation by Christ alone, it’s by the measure of your faith, which ultimately is your performance. That’s a big problem. And so I think ultimately, that is the danger. And then when we look at that, look at Jesus and go, look, even like the example of the lion’s den. If we were to say, if I just had more faith and great faith, then God can deliver me from my lion’s den. And we just have to realize, no, that’s… Look, Jesus Christ experienced the ultimate lion’s den, and He had perfect faith and God didn’t take that away. And yet He endured and Daniel went into the pit and came out. And this is how He points us to the true greater Daniel, Jesus to do that. He came out alive. Jesus Christ went into the ultimate lion’s den, He died and He came and rose again in victory. And He did that for our sin. So, I just think that’s such a… The story of like Jesus is the hero. It’s not about our faith. If we make it about our faith, we will be self-righteous or we will be in despair as two ways. And ultimately you’re not seeing the whole gospel is Jesus and not about what we do for Him and even the strength and level up of our faith. So I think that’s just so significant.

 

0:51:26.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, that’s really good. The tendency to trust in my faith, it’s real. And I’ve had those moments in life where I go, oh man, I don’t know if I can believe. And I realize, oh, it’s because I’ve been putting faith in my faith instead of faith in my Savior.

 

0:51:47.4 Paul Kim: Yes, exactly. And the other thing I would just kind of add to that is when we go through suffering and like living in Babylon, there’s lion’s den and there’s persecution. Those are real fears that we go through as followers of Jesus living in Babylon. And the whole point of the gospel-centeredness and why that is so significant, those fears can be great, but only when we see that Jesus Christ has gone through the ultimate lion’s den and has secured our victory, and it is secure, and therefore Romans 8 is true, nothing will separate us from the love of God. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15 is true, oh, death, where’s your victory, where’s your sting? Then whatever lion’s den we’re going through, every trial is put into the context of the battle that has already been won. That’s what Jesus has done for us. And therefore, live in Babylon with hope. Nothing will separate us from the love of God. Oh, death, where’s your victory, where’s your sting? Jesus Christ rose again. So that’s a different paradigm than from saying, oh my gosh, this lion’s den it so big, oh my God, I’m scared, and I need to have more faith, and like you’re making it about you, and ultimately it’s going to fail, whereas the whole gospel is like, no, Jesus did it all.  He’s the one who’s done it, therefore, you put that in the lion’s den that you’re in, in many ways, I don’t want to downplay our suffering, but those lions have lost their teeth because of the battle that has been won. And that’s the whole point of Daniel saying, remember God is sovereign, like pull the video… Like eyes of faith. That’s what Daniel does in such a significant, powerful way to remind us and encourage us that it is about Jesus and how we can have hope because he is the true, greater, better Daniel.

 

0:53:38.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah. And actually, that reality is what circles it back to how we can live in Babylon as a community of faith, how the church, how the church can… Like, I don’t need to be seeking the approval of the world around me. I need to be loving the city, but not this codependent kind of relationship that so quickly it can kind of deteriorate into that kind of thing. But…

 

0:54:09.6 Paul Kim: Right.

 

0:54:09.9 Jim Lovelady: It brings it back into the importance of we are a community of faith and we are in this together and we are trusting Jesus as we walk together. And it’s all of Paul’s commands of like, love one another, be patient with one another. How? Why? Well, because Jesus is alive. Because we’ve seen behind the curtain and we just don’t buy this anymore, the lies. So when the world accuses us of being horrible people, we can be humble enough to actually repent of where we’ve been horrible.

 

0:54:42.8 Paul Kim: Right.

 

0:54:43.3 Jim Lovelady: And we can do it confidently. And when the world wants to shut us down, we can speak out confidently with a Christ-centered, Christ-motivated humility.

 

0:54:57.2 Paul Kim: So, and it’s important to remember like, we are a community of God’s people living in exile. It’s not just like me, only I’m the only one. You think about Elijah, right after that whole thing of the victory, he comes back, he’s exhausted, he’s like, I’m the only one. And God’s like, no, it’s not. There’s a lot of other people here too. And I just think that’s something we need to think about. So it’s not like just me. And again, that just falls into the, I’m like Daniel. No one else is like Daniel but me. And that’s not the case. And how we are exiles together. And God works the gospel in and through the community of faith because on our own we just don’t get it. Yeah.

 

0:55:39.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, I’m very thankful for your congregation and how you were able to explore these ideas with them, and that the fruit of that with your community is you and your people are sojourning as exiles, trying to love the city with confidence and humility. But also like now there’s this book that we can share, and I love the series because it’s meant for small groups or meant for a church with their small groups to go through. This isn’t like a me and Jesus study. You gotta do this in community just the way that it’s formatted, the way that all these studies books are formatted. So it’s fun. Like I haven’t looked at the book of Daniel in a while, and then I get an opportunity to hang out with you, and I’m like, let’s crack open Daniel. And I’m like, man, this book is fantastic. Well, this is super helpful in jumping into that. So I really appreciate you writing this.

 

0:56:38.2 Paul Kim: Thanks, brother. I appreciate that. Thanks for the words of encouragement. This has been an encouraging time. I’m just grateful to connect with, meet with you. I’m encouraged just by the things you’re sharing as well too. And I am grateful for the ministry again of Serge and just even these studies too. How grateful I am for the resources and its ministry. It’s been a huge impact in my life, and I’m just grateful to be part of it.

 

[music]

 

0:57:09.5 Jim Lovelady: How do you live faithfully in a world that doesn’t like you and the God that you serve? I love Paul’s encouragement to start at the basics. You have to trust that you are who God says you are, his beloved. Man, that’s why I say it in every episode. You are the beloved of God. You’re going to forget. I forget all the time. So let’s remind ourselves who we belong to and what the Lord thinks about us. He loves us. Then you have to see what’s really actually going on behind the scenes. And the Lord delights to give us glimpses of his purposes being worked out by his sovereign grace. And it enables us to function according to that. When we stop looking at what’s really going on, having eyes to see the way the Lord has given us, we start to function according to the way of the world. And that is a type of faith. But it’s just idolatry. It’s false faith. So God gives us books like Daniel. And they cause us to look behind the curtain. And when we were granted eyes of faith, we’re able to do some really amazing things with confidence and humility. Very countercultural things that cause the world to look at us in wonder and amazement. And when the Spirit is there, renewal starts to happen both in our own hearts and in our culture. And this is how we can seek the welfare of Babylon. To see all things renewed. To see Jesus reign in the midst of his enemies as we await the glorious appearing of Christ. So follow the link in the show notes to get your copy of this or multiple copies for your small group Bible study. And while you’re at it, pick up this book too. It’s a new study in the same series on the book of Lamentations. I talked about sadness fatigue. And there’s a way to be sad before the face of God. To bring holy complaint to the Lord because He’s the only one who can do anything about the brokenness that we experience. Well, this book is all about how Jesus lifts the burden of sin and sorrow and brings us into his victorious joy. So pick up both of these books. The link’s in the show notes. And of course, all of these resources are meant to move you out from yourself. Compelling you by God’s grace into the world so that you can participate in the work of His Kingdom. So I want to encourage you to go explore what it means to go. We have new missions opportunities posted on our website for the coming year, including short-term trips as well as internships. So follow the link in the show notes to start exploring what it looks like to participate in the work of the Kingdom. And as you go, beloved, into a confusing and perplexing and antagonistic world that is in desperate need of generous friends, remember that you go with God, with his victorious blessing. So may the Lord bless you and keep you and make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you, turn His bright eyes to you and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting. Amen.

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