How Shame Fuels Rejection and How Grace Frees Us From It

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom.

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0:00:21.8 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved, welcome to the one about rejection. Oh, man, I am deathly afraid of rejection, and I really don’t know anybody who doesn’t have that same fear. I’m going to assume that you hate the feeling of rejection too. And this may seem like a silly question, but do you know why you hate the feeling of rejection? Have you ever explored what’s beneath that feeling? What’s at stake in that moment of rejection? The feeling of rejection points to some deep aspects of how we’ve constructed our own identity and how we’re managing shame in our life. And this may feel scary to you, but it’s also a signpost pointing to how Jesus wants to free us from that shame and give us our true identity as children of God, so that the threat of rejection no longer paralyzes us and we become people who are free to love, to love people even when they reject us. Now, I’ve been reading the Psalms of Ascent, and Psalm 129 really captures the emotion of rejection. And it goes like this: “Greatly have they afflicted me from my youth, let Israel now say, greatly have they afflicted me from my youth. Yet they have not prevailed against me. The plowers plowed upon my back and they made their furrows long. The Lord is righteous; He has cut the cords of the wicked. May all who hate Zion be put to shame and turned backward. Let them be like the grass on the housetops, which withers before it grows up, with which the reaper does not fill his hand nor the binder of sheaves his arms, nor do those who pass by say, ‘The blessing of the Lord be upon you. We bless you in the name of the Lord.'” That’s pretty raw, right? It’s heavy. Today’s episode is rich and compelling, but it also goes into some raw and heavy territory. We’ll talk about divorce, spiritual trauma, the experience of abandonment, church hurt, and the way that we negotiate with idols and how they offer life, but only leave you in shackles. If any of these topics are tender places for you, we just want you to know that before you listen. There’s a lot of hope and grace in this story, but we don’t want to skip over how painful some of it is. The Lord sees you, and hopefully today’s episode is God’s invitation to be free from those shackles. My guest today is Bobby Suh. He’s a pastor in the DC area and a friend of Serge and the Renewal team. And he has an amazing story of Jesus’ resurrection power to liberate and make all things new. And I’m excited for you to hear this conversation, because there’s something surprising in the way grace shows up in his story. And I think that you’ll find hope for your own story. It’s not an easy one, because first comes the power of death, but that’s actually where the Lord wants to free us, right in the midst of absolute devastation. That’s where Jesus shows Himself to be the resurrection and the life.

 

0:03:49.5 Jim Lovelady: Bobby Suh, welcome to Grace at the Fray. Thanks for being here, man.

 

0:03:52.2 Bobby Suh: Thanks, Jim.

 

0:03:52.9 Jim Lovelady: You drove up from the DC area. You’re a pastor in DC, and I’ve gotten to see you through a few things here and there. You came up to my church and you spoke, and that’s really where I was like, oh, man, this guy’s great and he’s got a great story and I want to hear his story. And then it just worked out.

 

0:04:12.7 Bobby Suh: It was so beautiful. I had my car break down, and everyone was so amazing. I mean, they were willing to give up their cars.

 

0:04:16.6 Jim Lovelady: Oh, really?

 

0:04:20.4 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And one of the elders, I think, drove me back to the hotel and shared about Jack Miller and his influence and salvation. And he actually wept and said, “As you were speaking, I heard Jack’s voice and the way he shares the story, and I miss him so much.” And just hearing that as a pastor who’s read his stuff and loved the influences, like Scotty, he’s texting us every morning and encouraging the pastors in this.

 

0:04:53.5 Jim Lovelady: You get the Scotty Smith texts? Don’t you love that?

 

0:04:56.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And so the fact that this elder just said, “In your voice and in your pain and in all of your story, I heard this person who helped me see Jesus and helped me remain this faithful man who once was just walking away from God and didn’t want anything to do with Him.” It’s just one of those memories that stays with me when I have dark days and I feel like pastoring is overwhelming.

 

0:05:27.1 Jim Lovelady: I’ve got a manila folder filled with thank you notes and gestures from congregants over the years of encouragement that I’m like, I need to go back to that frequently. And it’s almost serendipitous… Maybe I’ll move some papers, and because I’m not organized, it’s not like I’ve filed it away. It’s laying there somewhere. So I’ll move that pile looking for something else, and one of those cards will fall out.

 

0:05:40.3 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:05:53.5 Jim Lovelady: And I’ll read it and I’ll be like, “Oh, man. Oh, I really needed to hear that.” That’s super encouraging.

 

0:05:56.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:05:58.5 Jim Lovelady: So that’s awesome.

 

0:06:01.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah. It’s like one of those moments like when Mary was watching her son and stored away these stories in her heart. It’s kind of like…

 

0:06:05.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh, that’s good, yeah.

 

0:06:09.3 Bobby Suh: It keeps popping up and just reminding me like, “Hey, I’m here. And I needed you to be there in that moment to talk to that elder and hear that encouragement,” and things like that.

 

0:06:21.8 Jim Lovelady: All because your car broke down as you were coming up here. What is this? This was months ago or maybe a year ago?

 

0:06:28.1 Bobby Suh: Yeah, over a year ago. It’s like a brand new car, so it shouldn’t break down, but it had a faulty battery and it was crazy. And I remember being so anxious during those times, and I didn’t know how I was going to get back home, but…

 

0:06:42.8 Jim Lovelady: Right. And you even said it from the pulpit. You were like, “Well, my car broke down. I’m not sure how I’m going to get home. But here we go. Let’s talk about the gospel.”

 

0:06:50.7 Bobby Suh: And I got to worship at your church. And that was when I got a ride home from him. And it was almost like God just needed to set all that up to put that in my heart for the rest of my life.

 

0:07:03.4 Jim Lovelady: Right. I love it. So who are you? What are you doing here? Tell me your story.

 

0:07:08.0 Bobby Suh: Well, so I was born actually in Korea, and that’s where this kind of story of my life all unfolds. And my dad, I think, went to America just to kind of… During that big boom of immigrants coming to the US trying to make a living. And he left me and my brother, older brother, in Korea. And it was during that time that my mom, biological mom, she left. And it was through an affair and she abandoned us. We were kind of being raised by our grandmother. And during that time, I think there was this sense of a giant hole. Like, I don’t have a dad here. My mom, I don’t know where she is.

 

0:07:29.7 Jim Lovelady: Right. She left.

 

0:07:51.3 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And so you’re just kind of being passed around from relative to relative. And I remember being passed to an aunt and then to an uncle. And the two of us just kind of feeling like we’re being taken care of, but then being compared to our cousins, right? Dad would come home and give them presents from America, and we would be sent off to the room in the back, because they’re trying to take care of their kids and there’s these two boys that don’t have parents.

 

0:08:37.2 Jim Lovelady: You and your brother?

 

0:08:45.3 Bobby Suh: Yeah, my brother. And so I think everyone was trying their hardest, but it creates this kind of feeling of, man, I don’t have a home and no one wants to stay. Like, we’re not good enough to stay for or loved, and you’re just kind of being passed around. And so I developed this idea of, oh, I have to make sure that I don’t give people reasons to leave. And I began to internally say, oh, I have to be perfect. So I went the route of just being better than everyone and being as perfect as I can, hoping that that would give reasons for people to not abandon me.

 

0:08:53.5 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:09:01.6 Bobby Suh: That made me hyper-vigilant. I started kind of feeling the room and people’s disappointment or little eye movements or anything would be picked up instantly. And it’s from trauma, I think counselors would say, but it also made me very aware inside a room and what people were doing. So I think that began the journey for me of when I heard the gospel at a really young age, I think it was like seven or eight, and it was basically, “Hey, there’s a God who loves you infinitely and He gave His son for you.” And I just went, “I want that.”

 

0:09:21.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:09:41.7 Bobby Suh: I don’t have anything, and I want that. And so that began that journey, and I don’t think I’ve ever looked back and had a struggle of faith, like, “Oh, I don’t believe in God.” It was just God created this void, and then the message of the gospel was beautiful, but it was kind of born through all of this rejection and pain and feeling like I was abandoned. And then I think that led to a life of just kind of always wanting the approval of other people through my perfection, being the best at whatever it is that I do.

 

0:10:19.2 Jim Lovelady: The solution to wanting people’s approval or experiencing people’s approval was, “Oh, I can be amazing.”

 

0:10:28.4 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And it’s like you can’t articulate that when you’re at that age, but I lived it. And then looking back, there was this always internal thing that was driving me to say, like, “I wonder if they like me. I wonder if they love me.” Like junior or high school…

 

0:10:46.1 Jim Lovelady: Because you never know.

 

0:10:46.9 Bobby Suh: And you just know by the groups that you enter into and the people you make laugh and all the little signs you pick up.

 

0:10:55.0 Jim Lovelady: The momentary.

 

0:10:55.1 Bobby Suh: Yeah, the momentary things. And even though I believed Christ died for me, I don’t think the gospel was real. Like, it didn’t take hold of my heart. I think the idolatry of people’s approval, like fear of man, was far stronger, but I couldn’t articulate it. I was just like, “Oh, I’m saved and we go to church,” and these things. But I would go to the best high school in the country. And when my dad would talk about it at… They owned a restaurant, and when strangers would come and say, “Oh, my son, he goes to TJ,” it’s like the best high school in the country. And there’s some part of me in that moment felt like, “Oh, my dad approves of me. Like, he delights in me.” But I didn’t realize that it was tied to performance.

 

0:11:48.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, because of this thing.

 

0:11:49.4 Bobby Suh: Because I went to TJ, because I’m smart, or whatever the people think in the celebration. But it’s so you have to keep getting better and you have to keep hearing it, but I didn’t know that. And I just kept going, and my dad would be like, “What do you want to do when you grow up?” And I would be like, “Oh, I want to be a cardiothoracic surgeon for pediatrics.” And everyone was like, “That sounds crazy.” I’m like, “Yeah, ’cause I love kids and I want to glorify God.” And I had all the right…

 

0:12:20.0 Jim Lovelady: “I have a heart for kids.”

 

0:12:21.7 Bobby Suh: Yeah. But in the back of my mind, but in the back of my mind, I’m like, ah. Like, we grew up so poor, and we grew up always wanting, and my parents are always fighting over money. And so my idea was I can solve all of life’s issues by being perfect, by being the best that I can be and making the most money, and yet at the same time, glorifying God. ‘Cause I had to be perfect in every way.

 

0:12:50.9 Jim Lovelady: I can do all of this and do it for God’s glory. ‘Cause that’s part of being amazing. You’re not doing it just for anybody. You’re doing it for God.

 

0:13:01.3 Bobby Suh: Exactly. So it’s this kind of, you know, like Adam and Eve, like, the loincloth and hiding behind the bush. It’s like when you feel shame and guilt, which was what was happening in my childhood of rejection and abandonment, like, what I carried. I dealt with it by projecting this image of incredible strength, perfection, putting everything together for the world to see. And I think it worked for a while. And I was the popular kid. I was the funny kid. I went around and I got into the right schools. I applied early. I took the SAT once. I got into University of Virginia, and everyone was like, “Man, didn’t you want to go to Hopkins?” And I was like, “Yeah, but my parents didn’t have money.” So it just felt like everything I was doing was working out in the eyes of people. And I lived off that approval and celebration.

 

0:13:56.7 Jim Lovelady: It’s amazing how you can feast off of, “I only took the SAT one time.”

 

0:14:01.4 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And like, why do you need to say that? You know, why do you need to? And I think about the days way past all those moments, and I’m a pastor and I enter into a new congregation, and I’ll say hi to someone and they’ll be like, “Blah, blah, blah,” and then all of a sudden, they’ll drop like an Ivy League college in the middle of the conversation. And I would always be like, “I didn’t ask where you went to school.” And the reason I can recognize it so quickly is because that was my life. It’s like what I lived was this projection and approval, and I think those are the things that carried through. And I remember in college, like, I would be randomly asked to speak at like, an open-air conference on the mission field, or I would lead a Bible study, and people would be like, “Have you ever considered ministry?” And I would be like, “No. Like, I have to be a doctor, ’cause I have lots of people, like family members and everyone that’s depending on me.” But then the idea of giving up the prestige, becoming a doctor after going through all the right schools, and it just didn’t seem possible. You know, and it’s like it made my dad proud of me.

 

0:15:22.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:15:22.9 Bobby Suh: And our broken family was kind of, I felt like, being held up by this thing that I was pursuing. And my dad was working like 12, 13, 14 hours a day with this thing that he was hoping that I would become. And then I think when I got my calling, I think it was my junior year in college. All through the mission field work and serving at church, like, I knew I had to keep serving the church, but never full-time. That was not an option. But then when I felt like I was certain that I was being called to this, and I remember going to my dad and saying, “Dad, I have something to tell you.” And on our kitchen table, I remember looking him in the eye and I knew this wasn’t going to go well. But I was just praying and hoping. And when I said it, he was so angry, disappointed, hurt, like just…

 

0:16:23.5 Jim Lovelady: Just what you were afraid was going to happen.

 

0:16:25.4 Bobby Suh: That was going to happen, but hoping that it wouldn’t go that way, because we were building our relationship through those years and… And then all of a sudden, he gets up from his seat and just says, “Do whatever you want with your life,” and just walks away. And it was like another set of rejection that from even when he was leaving me and my mom left and all through the years of trying to earn my older brother’s love.

 

0:16:54.8 Jim Lovelady: It’s a familiar song.

 

0:16:55.8 Bobby Suh: It’s just the same song. It’s like when I perform and give people what they want, they celebrate and keep me around. But as soon as I go towards what God wants or follow this calling, then it’s a disappointment. And if you disappoint people, they’ll drop you. They’ll walk away from you. And it was confirmed again. And so during that time, it was really incredibly difficult. But my youth pastor, when I told him… And he was the one that invested in me all through and where my love for discipleship came from… And I told him, “I think God called me into full-time ministry.” And then I remember we’re pumping gas, and I was pumping gas in his car, and he says, “I know, Bob.” And I was like, “How did you know? You knew?” And I was like, “When did you know?” And he said, “I knew in high school.” And I was like, “You let me go through organic chemistry? I had to go through organic chemistry lab? Like, are you crazy? You could have told me my freshman year and I could have been a philosophy major.” Yeah, like, you made me go through physics and calculus and all these things. Are you crazy? And it was so funny, because he just dropped the line and he goes, “It’s not for me to tell you. It’s for you to hear from God and for me to confirm.” And he just walked away.

 

0:18:20.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. He let you go on that journey because he was listening to what Jesus wanted him to say to you.

 

0:18:26.1 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And it was incredible that he waited years and years and years for me to figure it out, because I was so immersed in this desire to please my family, like earn my dad’s love, all these things that I was carrying, my family’s reputation, like I needed to become this doctor and all these dreams. ‘Cause I would tell him, like, “Oh, I’m going to buy you a house in Korea and you’ll never have to work a day.” And these things that I had imagined all of a sudden in one call disappear for my dad, for me, our whole family. But he steadfastly held to this, like, “Oh, that boy’s going into ministry.” And he waited for me to tell him, and then he confirmed it.

 

0:19:15.4 Jim Lovelady: Wow.

 

0:19:15.8 Bobby Suh: And here’s, I think, where I would speak to young pastors and say, there’s this part of you that is so fervent in love with Christ, and maybe it comes from all of this past trauma that I explained about me and what it is, but there’s this kind of club that you start entering into. Whether it’s the PCA or the Southern Baptist, there are people who kind of tell you, like, if you believe this and you rise to this and you show yourself to be this, which, again, instigates this performance, like, “I need to live up to the standards of those in power,” then I can kind of join that club. And so because it’s like that, I went from, “I’m going to join this club of doctors and rich people and do all of this,” and shifted gears toward, “Oh, I need to be like this to be approved in the PCA.”

 

0:20:13.5 Jim Lovelady: Because your ability to walk into a room and see the cultural landscape 20/20 doesn’t change. Like, you’ve been able to do that your whole life. So you just take me to a different room, I will look, survey the landscape, and I will know where I am in the hierarchy. I will know what I need to say. I will know who I need to talk to. I’ll know exactly what to do. Change the room, take me anywhere.

 

0:20:38.1 Bobby Suh: Anywhere. Adjust, because that’s my survivor mechanism. It’s how I protect myself, how I kind of with a group of people who approve of me and will back me up and all these things. And so walking into becoming a pastor, then I was like, “Oh, I’m going to be the best pastor. I’m not going to be some prosperity-loving, like all about myself. I’m going to preach the gospel hard. I’m going to love my kids and answer the phone call at 2:00 in the morning, some teenage boy crying about breaking up with a girl. I’m going to be the pastor.” So I literally just shifted gears, but I wasn’t aware of it.

 

0:21:00.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:21:17.1 Bobby Suh: I just thought, “Oh, this is the next phase of my life.” Like, my dad and everyone is disappointed.

 

0:21:23.8 Jim Lovelady: The next phase of being amazing, the next phase of being perfect, the next phase of being the golden boy.

 

0:21:29.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah. Because for a pastor, it’s now about sacrifice and giving more and being like Christ. And that just played over and over in my head. And so I thought I was just being like, I was loved by God, and so now I’m going to just love His people and be a good shepherd like Him, not the corrupt shepherds who live for themselves. And so I went in that route and got married. And it was something that, watching the way that my dad and my biological mom and the affairs and all the brokenness, my older brother and I were like, “We’ll never let that happen in our marriage.” So whatever we need to do, whoever we need to be to make our future spouse be loved and lead the family and be like somebody who stays, somebody who doesn’t gamble or cause pain in our family. And all the things that my dad was that destroyed us, I think I decided I’m just going to be the opposite. And so when I got married, I did the laundry, I cooked meals, I cleaned the house. I was answering the phone calls at 2:00 in the morning, but I would have flowers on a random day for my wife. I would do all the things in my head was this ideal husband and hopefully a great father in the future, and just living in that. But then to find out that we couldn’t have children. And so over six miscarriages, seven miscarriages, six, seven miscarriages. It was very early. Going to a sonogram and waiting for a heartbeat and not having it, and just the devastation and weeping. And I could see my wife just going into a darkness, and offering to quit being a pastor if this is too much and maybe we just need to live a regular life instead of having people just come through our house all the time and caring for these teenagers and young adults and things like that. And her saying, “This is your calling. I can’t ask you to forfeit that. That’s crazy.” And crying and weeping together and getting through those moments together. And so even though it was incredibly hard, I felt like that’s how we get refined, right? Like all of the pain points in my childhood, all the way till here, and even in our marriage, I always thought you stay faithful, you believe in Him, and you cry out in all of your brokenness. That’s what God uses to bless the church.

 

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0:24:25.3 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge fieldworkers that we here at the headquarters in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for all of our new missionaries who are joining our organization and all of our missionaries who are raising funds and financial support to go on the field. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that You would bless these folks. Remind them that they belong to You, even in the face of rejection and shame and the risks of following You. But give them great joy in their work, in Your Kingdom, and the pleasure of Your joy as they follow You. Give them wisdom and let Your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, and with the people that they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved, protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness, and restore to them the joy of Your salvation. And let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in the places that they serve and in their own lives, just as it is in Heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now, back to the conversation.

 

0:25:43.4 Bobby Suh: Getting to that stage of like—I think it was also tied to that faithfulness and wanting God’s approval and tied to my dad’s rejection and I only need God the Father. It was all there. And I remember we went, there’s this turkey bowl where teenagers play across different churches and you get…

 

0:26:10.8 Jim Lovelady: On Thanksgiving?

 

0:26:11.3 Bobby Suh: A trophy on Thanksgiving. And they practice for months. And we’re a tiny church and our girls are small, junior high kids majority, and we won the tournament. And I was their pastor, so I went and celebrated, took pictures. And I remember when I got home from that winning, I was just feeling like, “Wow, our girls are amazing.” I found my wife in the bathroom weeping. And I was like, “Man.” And like any good man, you go, “What did I do?” You just go, “I must have said something, I must have not done something.” It’s like, this one’s bad because she’s in the bathroom weeping. And I was like, “Oh, man.” And I was just running through a list of like, “Oh, maybe I didn’t do this and that.” She comes out of the bathroom, she sits down on the couch, and then she says, “I met someone.” And I can’t tell you, it almost feels like you’re not in your own body, that you’re watching this scene.

 

0:27:24.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, this dissociation, kind of.

 

0:27:25.6 Bobby Suh: Yeah. All of a sudden it was like my body’s like, “Whoa, this is too much. You gotta protect yourself.” And when I pulled out and was watching the scene, I was like, “What do you mean you met someone? I don’t understand. We’re married.” All these things. And she began to kind of unroll. And then my mind just spiraled and it was like, “Oh, my God, when you were sitting on the couch and you had your computer away, you were talking to him.” All these things started flooding my mind. And of course I couldn’t sleep a wink. All night I was writing a letter of all the ways that I messed up, that I didn’t love her well. Like, “I should have left the ministry. I didn’t love you. I shouldn’t have answered the call at 2:00 in the morning.” All that stuff. And you’re saying, “Can we try? I’ll be better.” Like that’s how I live my life. If something’s broken, I’m going to throw all of my heart into it to fix it. And the next morning, I didn’t sleep a wink. Got her flowers. I drove to her school where she was teaching and I, you  know, and it’s crazy because my whole world’s falling apart and the ladies in the office are like, “Oh, my God, you’re like the greatest husband. I can’t believe you brought flowers for your wife.”

 

0:28:46.3 Jim Lovelady: The juxtaposition is certainly jarring.

 

0:28:47.4 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:28:48.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:28:49.8 Bobby Suh: And I was like, “Oh, I wish you knew what was happening.” Went to the classroom, put the flowers and put the note and just was watching her teaching and just praying and saying, like, “God, like, how are you going to fix this? Like, ’cause I can’t. Like, I can promise the world, but she’s in this place.” Like, and decades removed from that moment, I think I realized, wow, she’s also carrying incredible trauma, brokenness, her past, the loss of the children. Like, we should have gotten more help. We should have, and all these things are running through my head.

 

0:29:32.7 Jim Lovelady: All piling up. Yeah.

 

0:29:34.0 Bobby Suh: And thinking. But in that moment I was just like, if I can just convince her that I’ll be a better husband and I’ll do everything I can, then maybe she’ll stay. And so for the next eight months, just, I couldn’t tell anyone, because I didn’t want to ruin her reputation. So I was keeping up an image at church and while fighting for her and in the background, as no one knew, I was sleeping an hour a day, on medication. It was literally, I would have to take the medication to sleep an hour. I lost like 40 pounds. Like, it was the most painful, anxiety-filled. And still to this day, I think my body is living in that trauma and that anxiety because it was 24 hours a day, like one hour relief a night.

 

0:30:26.3 Bobby Suh: And in that time, I think because no one knew, I was left to myself and fighting only with God to try to fix this. And it almost seemed like God was not giving me anything. Like, there would be glimpses of people. Like, once I told my brother and he took me to his house and took care of me, like, there were moments of relief. But for most of those moments, it was me pleading with God and feeling like, “You’re not fixing anything.” And taking control and all those things, trying to fix it and promising things and then ups and downs. And she would say, “I love you.” And then I would be confused, because it was like, your actions and those words seem…

 

0:31:19.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. What do you mean by that? Yeah.

 

0:31:21.8 Bobby Suh: Completely apart. But I was fighting for her, so I just kind of took all of it. Whatever she said and whatever she would talk about the guy, and it was crazy. Like, and in those moments, I think I didn’t blame God, but I didn’t understand why I was going through this. And I didn’t understand, like, what his plan was to fix it. So it wasn’t ever like, “I hate you.” It was more like, “I don’t know what’s taking you so long to, like, fix this.”

 

0:31:55.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Fix my marriage.

 

0:31:56.5 Bobby Suh: Yeah. Like, “Bring her home.” You know, and during that time when I was, all those eight months, I was seeing a counselor. And I remember sharing with him this story. Like, “You know, I think God’s calling for me.” And this is what we do when we’re in trauma, I think we idealize in all of our grieving. And I said, “I think He wants me to be like the modern Hosea. You know, like, I’m going to pursue her when she’s with her lovers and all the broken things.” And I had played out this huge story of how we’re going to write a book and we’re going to go to every church and share about what’s happening.

 

0:32:32.4 Jim Lovelady: When God fixes this, man, it’s going to be a great testimony.

 

0:32:34.7 Bobby Suh: It’s going to be like the launchpad to this next amazing thing. And…

 

0:32:40.6 Jim Lovelady: Oh, what a mess.

 

0:32:41.6 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And I remember sharing that with the counselor. And he used to be a pastor, so he’s theologically sound, but he’s like a licensed counselor. And he heard all of it and he goes, “He already did that.” And I remember going, “What?” So I had put all of my hope in this dream, fantasy, imagination of what life is going to be like with her after.

 

0:33:07.4 Jim Lovelady: I’ll do this if that’s the reward.

 

0:33:10.1 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And my counselor just said, “What if it’s not God’s plan? What if He already wrote Hosea, and Hosea went through His pain, and He did love Gomer, and all of these things God already… Like, why do you need to attach yourself to this hope and this dream of how God is going to resolve all of this?” And I think it was one of the most powerful moments where I had to rethink, because that’s the way I read the Bible is I was the hero, like David. And even though they teach you not to, you still go…

 

0:33:50.6 Jim Lovelady: We can’t help ourselves.

 

0:33:51.6 Bobby Suh: We can’t. Like, we’re the main character in the story, and when things break down, God has a plan to change it and make it beautiful. And after he said that, I just went into this really dark place of, man, if I don’t have that dream, what is my hope? What’s going to happen? And it just kept falling apart to the point of divorce. And even at that, she couldn’t come home, and she just said, “What if I come back and I regret not going through and living this life that I imagine it to be?”

 

0:34:33.5 Bobby Suh: And so after that, and while that was happening, our church, parents were finding out and leaders were finding out, and this small, tiny church plant that we had built up, and we had these leaders and members that were amazing.

 

0:34:50.8 Jim Lovelady: A championship turkey trot team.

 

0:34:53.6 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And I was bringing out this faithful, sacrificing congregation that we’re building up, and parents started going to our senior pastor and saying…

 

0:35:04.4 Jim Lovelady: Oh, shoot. Okay, here it comes.

 

0:35:07.1 Bobby Suh: “If you don’t let Bobby go, we’re going to take our money and attendance, serving, and we’re going to leave the church. I can’t leave my kids under the care of… We don’t know all this stuff. Like, what did he do? Why is he getting divorced?” Like, all that stuff. And so we’re having PTA meetings and all these things, and slowly you can see the church dwindling.

 

0:35:22.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh, gosh.

 

0:35:37.2 Bobby Suh: And during that time, I think I was like, man, how is it that I’m the one who was cheated on? And I am at a place now where I can fully admit that there were definitely gaps and holes in the way that I loved her and who I was and choosing ministry. I’m sure of it. But at the end of the day, it was so painful to have the parents of the kids that I loved and poured my life into start walking away. Then for my leaders and everyone around to be disappointed in the way that I was handling it and leading, and the scandal and all of it, and begin to walk away. And I think I remember talking to God and saying, “We had a pretty good run, huh?” Like, I discipled a lot of people. No one wants to hear me preach. All the speaking engagements that I used to get all across the country, just done. I start hearing rumors like, “Oh, Bobby cheated on his wife. That’s why she cheated.” And someone was like, “Yo, man, in California, somebody said you were divorced twice.” And I was like, “What?” Like, I don’t understand why people were making stuff up. They could just go with the regular story, and it’s just as scandalous, and people will talk about it, but why add things?

 

0:37:08.2 Jim Lovelady: Uh-huh. Oh, man.

 

0:37:10.4 Bobby Suh: And during that time, there were very few people who actually asked me face to face, “What happened?” And you know, texted me, contacted me and said, “Hey, I heard. I’d love to hear what happened.” And during that time was when in the presbytery, I remember people were finding out, and I really thought the other pastors would come and say, like, “Are you okay?” Just, “What happened?” But instead, people were just kind of… And now thinking, during the time, I was like, “You’re just bad friends. You don’t love me. You just see me as like…”

 

0:37:53.6 Jim Lovelady: The other pastors, you mean?

 

0:37:54.7 Bobby Suh: Yeah, the other pastors. Like, just whatever. But now I realize when you’re faced with an incredible scandal, you just don’t know what to say. And so during that time, I was like, “What bad friends and pastors,” and things like that, but no one came and asked how I was and things like that. First conversation I had, one of the pastors that I respect, he was like, “Hey, we have to form a committee to make sure this wasn’t your fault.”

 

0:38:10.6 Jim Lovelady: Uh huh, right.

 

0:38:26.6 Bobby Suh: I think during that time I was so hurt by that, because I wished he would have led with, “Hey, Bobby, are you okay?” and then heard me and then told me there needs to be a committee to kinda, you know, a commission to look into what happened, make sure I’m cleared of whatever charges. And now I’m so thankful that our presbytery did that, because without that investigation and kind of look into what happened, then all sorts of questions can keep coming. But now we can say, “Hey, they looked into it. He’s not found guilty,” whatever.

 

0:38:46.7 Jim Lovelady: Vindicated.

 

0:39:06.9 Bobby Suh: But during that time, you’re not thinking that. You’re just so broken, so lost. You’re like, “I just want people to ask how I’m doing.”

 

0:39:16.0 Jim Lovelady: Anything to not feel rejection number 75,342.

 

0:39:21.4 Bobby Suh: I was going through it at church, no more speaking engagements, losing my church, everywhere. My wife, who is supposed to love me till death do we part, rejected. Then now it’s a chain of childhood all the way to now, just rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, despite how much I’m trying to be perfect.

 

0:39:34.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:39:48.3 Bobby Suh: And during our commission, my ex-wife was so gracious in signing this thing that said, “I on my own voluntarily have chosen to have an affair,” and whatever. And so she was like, “I don’t want your future, your ministry to be impacted by my choice.” So she wrote that. And because of that letter, everyone on the commission was like, “She gave you this?” And I was like, “Yeah, because she doesn’t want to impact going into the future.” And I remember the last words of that commission, one of the members, older Korean American pastors, I mean, Korean-speaking congregation pastors, was like, “Bobby, live quietly. Don’t cause any more ruckus in the Kingdom.”

 

0:40:13.5 Jim Lovelady: Any more ruckus.

 

0:40:38.7 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And it sunk so deep into my heart that, “Oh, I brought shame to God.” By not loving my wife enough, by not repenting enough, and I’m carrying that weight with me the whole time. Just don’t want to go out. I had to kind of sell my house at a low cost because it was upside down and had to move back into my parents’ house. I mean, this was loss of all things, right? The church was falling apart. I didn’t have a house anymore. Living in the basement of my house, like I’m over 30. Literally the whole life…

 

0:41:15.4 Jim Lovelady: Your world is falling apart.

 

0:41:16.6 Bobby Suh: Everything was falling apart. And it was during that time when one of my friends, he was speaking at the college ministry that I kind of revived, I invested five years into. It was thriving. It went from three kids all the way up to 120. Just college ministry at George Mason. And I spoke there every semester. I was staff for five years, but kept going back, getting invited back. But when we were going through this, invitation stopped, of course. And he was speaking there, and I remember him inviting me and saying, “I need you to come and just hear the gospel, get outside your house and pray. Pray for me, pray for the kids.” And I was like, “Oh, I don’t want to see anyone,” just living in shame. And then he preached and he got to a place where he shared about his mom and dad and how his mom had an affair, left, and his dad had a choice either to bring her home, and everyone in his neighborhood basically said, “Don’t take her back. She’s going to do the same thing again. She’s a lost cause. Protect your boys.” And he said, “My dad had a choice to reject my mom and feel part of the community, or to take her back and then to be rejected by the community for the sake of the boys, so that his boys have a mom.” And he said he made the choice to bring her home so that me and my brother had a mom. He was rejected so that we wouldn’t be rejected by our mom. And right when he said that, God was like, “You will never be rejected in my presence because I rejected my only son.” And I lost it. Because all I was feeling from the moment it happened to now… And then I can trace it all the way back to my childhood. Rejection.

 

0:43:29.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Despised and rejected.

 

0:43:30.7 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:43:32.2 Jim Lovelady: Isaiah 53.

 

0:43:33.6 Bobby Suh: Despite all my efforts and performance and hiding behind this projected image of perfection, all of it ended in absolute rejection by everyone that I tried to love and give my life to. And then God, in the stillness of my heart, for this one moment said, “You will never be rejected by me because I rejected my only Son.” And the world just shattered. And I was like… It was like I saw the gospel for the first time in the fullness of its beauty, and I just sat there weeping and weeping and weeping. And I think that was the pivotal moment when everything changed. Because I was trying to project an image of perfection to be accepted.

 

0:44:28.1 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:44:28.5 Bobby Suh: But I didn’t realize the acceptance that I always longed for was always available to me by God.

 

0:44:35.4 Jim Lovelady: Your life has been like this Greek tragedy where you go, “The last thing I want to happen is to be rejected.” So I’m going to do everything in my power every day, every moment of every day for years and years and years to keep from being rejected. And doing all of that stuff is a part of… It’s not the only thing, but it’s a part of the story of rejection. Like, “I’m going to try not to get rejected,” and I’m still going to be rejected. And in the end, you’re just like, “This… It’s a tragedy.” And Jesus goes, “I did that tragedy before you did. And I know that tragedy. And here’s how, when you follow me into that, you will see the victory where everything is redeemed.”

 

0:44:59.9 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And it’s like this… You cannot write this story. Like, if you were the most brilliant writer, to make every moment and every point and decision of all these people in your lives, and they’re all choosing independently, whatever, and they’re trying to survive and find their own worth and whatever. And everything needed to happen exactly the way it happened for that one moment when the gospel became the most beautiful thing in my life. And everything from that point on in my ministry changed.

 

0:46:03.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So talk to me about, yeah, what does that look like over the last… Over the years?

 

0:46:08.0 Bobby Suh: So now I’m, after that, I just kind of went into another Korean church, because our church was so small, it merged with another church. And even then there was rejection of, like, “Oh, we don’t want Bobby for this. We want him for that.”

 

0:46:21.8 Jim Lovelady: Any kind of association. Yeah.

 

0:46:24.8 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And even the church bringing up this trump card, at least in their mind, this trump card of, “Well, did you know that Bobby was divorced and this is what happened in the divorce?” As if the congregation that was waiting would have heard that and gone, “Oh, we didn’t know that.” But the crazy thing was, years before our churches merged, I spoke at that congregation and shared my story, and they heard it for themselves from my own mouth. So when the leadership shared that, they were like, “Yeah, we know that. That’s why we actually want him.” Then I just started ministry at that church because of this crazy sovereign work of God that you just can’t plan.

 

0:47:12.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, there’s a glimmer of redemption right there. I mean, maybe it’s even more than a glimmer. It’s, no, that’s… He experienced all that rejection, he experienced all that hardship. That’s why we want him.

 

0:47:15.9 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:47:18.9 Jim Lovelady: Like, that’s why we want him. Five words that are just so healing.

 

0:47:27.1 Bobby Suh: For me.

 

0:47:29.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:47:31.5 Bobby Suh: Especially because everyone in my life was like… Well, at least in my interpretation, I’m sure they didn’t make that choice to bring that about to me… But it was what I kept hearing by people walking away or rejecting me was, “Oh, you’re not good enough.”

 

0:47:47.7 Jim Lovelady: That’s why we don’t want you.

 

0:47:49.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah, “That’s why we don’t want you. That’s why you’re not worth staying for.” And Jesus, in that one moment, said, “There will never be a time when you’re not wanted, when you’re not loved.” And it just kept showing up. And now I’m working at this church, keeping my head down because I was told to keep my head down, fighting for our congregation, but it was no longer this projection of, “Oh, I want to grow this giant church and be respected,” and all of it. It was, “Well, no one wants me, but I can be faithful because I have Him. Like, I will never lose this.” And so everything is different. No longer I’m projecting or trying to get something. I mean, underlying, of course, all of it’s there, but majority of that has been challenged and I reject it mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Like, I don’t want that, because I know what that road leads to. And it was during that time when a friend that I met through Facebook, and he was pastor at this new church, and they were hurting, and he came and revived it, and it’s a pretty significant church, own building and things like that. And we became friends and we’re hanging out, and he asked me to lunch. And I was sitting with him and his assistant pastor, and they were talking about this third pastor that they’re trying to hire. And so I gave him a suggestion. I was like, “Oh, I know this kid. He’s great, organized, amazing. You should consider him.” And they didn’t even acknowledge what I said. And I was like, oh, rejected again.

 

0:49:30.7 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

0:49:32.7 Bobby Suh: I was like, here’s… You’re like, Jesus, I thought you freed me from this. And I was like, man, okay, this. And they’re like, “Hey, Bobby, come up for coffee.” And so we’re sitting and he says, “Bobby, would you consider praying about this position?” And I was like, they didn’t want to hear about me talking about another guy, because I was so broken that I couldn’t even imagine working at a church like that. And I was just like, oh, I’ll work at a small church. I’ll be forgotten or whatever. And they’re like, “We want you to apply.” And I was like, no, there’s no way you want me. ‘Cause, you know, in back of my mind, my story’s playing of what happened. So I said, “Ah, it’s probably a no. You know, I’m building something beautiful and have these people that I love.” But internally I’m like, I’m just not worthy of that position.

 

0:50:30.0 Jim Lovelady: You had rejected yourself in that moment. Yeah.

 

0:50:32.5 Bobby Suh: I did. That’s just my natural response.

 

0:50:34.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:50:35.9 Bobby Suh: And so I said, “Give me a month, I’m going to pray.” Told my wife, I was like, “This church, this big church…”

 

0:50:43.7 Jim Lovelady: Your new wife. By the way. Oh, by the way…

 

0:50:45.2 Bobby Suh: Oh, sorry. After all the pain and all the brokenness, years later, I found someone, we got married. And so. Amen. Praise the Lord.

 

0:50:55.0 Bobby Suh: Praise God. And the way that she’s loved me actually has brought the most healing in my life. The way that she incredibly lives that Christlike, unconditional, unrelenting pursuit love. Like, she has loved me that way. And so, yeah, she’s the greatest treasure that God has granted me after all the pain. So when I went home and I said, “Hey, this pastor of this bigger church wants me to pray about coming,” and she was like, “Absolutely not.” Like, literally the first…

 

0:51:32.3 Jim Lovelady: “Hey, you’re not going to pray about it?”

 

0:51:34.6 Bobby Suh: And she was like, “We love our people. We’re building something. I don’t want to go to a big church with all those fancy things.” And so she said no from the beginning. And I was like, “Yeah, I told him the same, that we’re probably not going to accept, but he asked us to pray.” I told him the same. I told him probably not. She’s like, “No.” I said, “Not, absolutely not.” And so I was like, “Can we take about a month? Because I promised that we’ll take a month.” So whether it’s confirming that or not, just pray. And so we prayed for a month. And it’s so crazy that I sought, my brother, sister-in-law, people I trust and love, their advice, and they all were like, “You should go.”

 

0:52:17.1 Bobby Suh: And I was like, man. I was like, “Do you not hear how much I love our people?” And they were like, “You can’t be their savior. Your love for them, like you can’t… Like what if God has these people that He wants you to love equally the way that you have loved them, but you’re almost holding on to this like it’s…”

 

0:52:43.7 Jim Lovelady: Well, and that’s a funny thing, because you don’t want that congregation to experience the rejection that you have felt your whole life.

 

0:52:47.3 Bobby Suh: Exactly.

 

0:52:50.9 Jim Lovelady: So maybe I can be the person that makes them not feel rejected. And Jesus goes, “No, I’m that person.”

 

0:52:59.1 Bobby Suh: “I’m that person.” And it was another mind-blowing… Like, God, even though I’m trying so hard to do it right, there’s still parts of this heart that clamps onto these things, and it’s like, “This is my worth.” And Keller and all those guys are like, “We are this idol-making factory and we’ll never stop.” And so in that moment, I was like, okay, God, if this is it, I surrender. Whatever you want. And during that time, that senior pastor, he asked me to come and have a late meal with him and the assistant at a McDonald’s in our area. And I went and he was like, “How’s prayer?” And I was like, “Wife and I are praying.” And he was like, “I just wanted to hear your story.” And so over the course of the next couple hours, I unpacked everything that happened. And I was sure at this point, knowing the full story, he was going to be like, “Oh…”

 

0:54:03.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, maybe you’re not the guy.”

 

0:54:04.2 Bobby Suh: Like, “Oh, how do I introduce… I don’t want this growing ministry to start whatever.” And right when I shared the story, he said, “That’s exactly why I want you. I can’t trust… I can’t trust a preacher of the gospel who doesn’t have a limp.”

 

0:54:15.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, that’s right.

 

0:54:26.7 Bobby Suh: “Who hasn’t worked through all these things you’re sharing with me and why Christ is his everything and his only thing.” And I remember just feeling like everything that I had gone through just felt like it made me smaller, less desired, more rejected, to find out it is this very thing…

 

0:54:40.0 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

 

0:54:53.2 Bobby Suh: That makes me somebody who can reach the people that He wants to reach and love the people He wants to love. And through that journey, saying yes when I wanted to say no, I think I’ve discovered this immense love from God that cannot be replicated by our performance or choices or doing all the right things and checking off all the right things. And even you asking me to do this podcast and me randomly speaking at a conference at AALC or being invited to Dresher to do this talk, it’s like it’s such a gift that I could have never imagined or could have ever done by my own strength.

 

0:55:40.7 Jim Lovelady: Right. If you had earned it, quote unquote earned it, like you had been trying to your whole pastoral career leading up to this crisis moment, it might have looked really cool. It might have been pretty flashy, but it wouldn’t have had the certain je ne sais quoi. It’s like, “Oh, it’s the Holy Spirit.”

 

0:55:59.5 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And you can’t take credit for it.

 

0:56:00.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:56:02.1 Bobby Suh: It’s like you were this piece that was so messy and broken and didn’t say the right things, didn’t do the right things. You’re just lost. And it’s like He’s this shepherd in the background who’s with you in these beautiful pastures, but also in the deepest, darkest valleys.

 

0:56:12.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:56:22.3 Bobby Suh: He protects you and guides you and loves you. And you’re just kind of lost in watching Him.

 

0:56:26.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:56:31.0 Bobby Suh: And sometimes there are times in the valley where you’re like, “I have no idea what He’s doing, and I’m starting to feel very angry and upset.” And He’s like, “Tell me more. How do you feel about me?” And it’s like, He just doesn’t stop pursuing you, even when you’re just confused, doubtful, angry, and broken.

 

0:56:54.8 Jim Lovelady: Okay, so there are two kinds of people that I want to hear your story. It’s the young pastors who, for the life of them, do not want to go through something like that.

 

0:57:00.1 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:57:05.4 Jim Lovelady: My dark night of the soul was 2015, and I always say I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

 

0:57:08.9 Bobby Suh: Anyone.

 

0:57:12.3 Jim Lovelady: But I’m so thankful that the Lord brought me through that, because I discovered grace in ways that I could never have if I didn’t go through that dark night of the soul. And so I want to hear you talk to these young pastors who are just coming into ministry, gung ho, love Jesus, want to be faithful, want to love the church the Lord’s called them to. That’s one person I want to hear you minister to. The other type of person that I think is listening to this story is the person who, every time you tell a story of rejection, they feel it in their own. They fill in with their emotions the stories that they’ve lived of rejection and feeling abandoned and feeling unwanted. And it’s almost kind of like… It can be that your story is so visceral that it’s hard to hear for a lot of people who their knee-jerk reaction now after all this is to expect to be rejected.

 

0:57:57.5 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

0:58:15.2 Jim Lovelady: I want to hear you minister to that person as well, okay? 

 

0:58:16.4 Bobby Suh: So young pastor and then the rejected. Yeah. Okay.

 

0:58:19.6 Jim Lovelady: Ready, set, go.

 

0:58:21.8 Bobby Suh: I think for the young pastor, I… Recently our church needed to hire some people ’cause people had left on staff. And I went to a graduation and I saw one of my youth kids at a graduation, and I was like, “What are you doing here?” And he said, “Oh, Pastor Bobby, I am now the youth pastor at the church where I was your youth.” And I saw him and I was like, “Man, what a crazy thing that God’s allowing me to perceive.” And so I said, “Hey, let’s get breakfast.” ‘Cause I heard that his family had left Virginia area, so he was all alone at this church. And so I was like, “Oh, I need to make sure he’s doing okay.” So I have this unending desire for young pastors and their health, spiritually, ’cause I remember what I was like in my 20s, and it was no good. My brain was all over the place. And so I said, “Let’s come, let’s have breakfast. I want to hear what’s happening in your story.” And he’s sharing about all the crazy hardships and rejection and brokenness. And I was like, “Who’s loving you and investing in you?” and all these things. And he was like, “Well, there’s this person, and I’m trying to do this and that.” And so I was like, “Okay, let’s just meet regularly, and we can spend time talking through stuff and I’ll always be here.” And then a long time later, when we needed this pastor and that job popped up, he came to mind. And so, taking people from churches is whatnot, but because I knew that he was in a situation that was toxic and broken and all these things, I said, “Okay, maybe it’s better to save this kind of young pastor in this environment where he’s all alone and bring him to a team where multiple pastors can kind of invest in him.” Because so few are going into seminary and so few are making it alive past ministry. We’re losing people left and right.

 

1:00:23.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

1:00:23.3 Bobby Suh: And so I was like, every pastor with a calling, we have to fight for them. And so I said, “Just pray about it.” He said, “No, I’m not going to come.” And I was like, “Just like…”

 

1:00:33.8 Jim Lovelady: I’ve heard that before. I’ve heard that before.

 

1:00:36.1 Bobby Suh: And I was like, “Just pray about it. No pressure, whatever.” And so he, in between, but something with his senior pastor made it blatantly clear that he was going to die, because he shared about, “I’m praying about this,” and he just did not react well. And actually, physical harm, he threatened.

 

1:00:38.8 Jim Lovelady: Oh, my gosh.

 

1:00:55.1 Bobby Suh: In a public Starbucks of all places. And so as those things were happening, he came on board, and I remember he was like, “It feels like I’m coming out of Egypt.” I was like, “Yeah, I know exactly what that feels like.” And he was coming out and he was just healing and going through all these things. But in that time I realized, “Oh, but Egypt’s still in him.”

 

1:01:08.3 Jim Lovelady: That’s exactly… Yep.

 

1:01:21.5 Bobby Suh: Even though he’s removed from the circumstances, all the trauma and burden and all these mixed understanding of what a pastor is and carrying the weight and the rejection from parents and all these things, he’s just… And he’s reacting in this way of like, “Ah, I don’t want that or this.” And so, the other pastors, we spend time just loving, speaking truth, reminding of the gospel, and keeping your heart soft. Don’t harden and don’t get angry and don’t become the reactionary, anxious presence that increases more anxiety in this system. And I was just like, you have to take some time, be with us, be with God. And I think for every young pastor, I think you need to look for pastors who have this unending longing for your flourishing and your health spiritually, emotionally, physically, in all these ways. And as a young pastor, you can’t carry this weight of like, “I’m going to change the world and start the true church, this beautiful, multi-ethnic, God-fearing, prayerful,” and “I’m going to change the world.” That’s all of us coming out of seminary. We’re like, “Greek and Hebrew, and our congregation is going to know the Bible and be sensitive,” so many different ways of expressing our churches. And I think that’s not as important as being part of a community of peer pastors and inviting older pastors who’ve gone through literally the wringer, rejection, pain, suffering, and seeing, did it turn them hard or did it soften them and fill them with greater grace? And I think if you can attach yourself to the pastors who they feel softer because of their pain, it feels like they went to God and just cried out before Him and met with Him during all of that pain. And I think if young pastors can see what a gift that is from God and to just say, “I need that.”

 

1:03:50.4 Jim Lovelady: And pray for that.

 

1:03:51.3 Bobby Suh: And pray for that.

 

1:03:52.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Because you don’t often… You could get hired by a senior pastor and you just don’t know.

 

1:03:59.1 Bobby Suh: You don’t know.

 

1:03:59.9 Jim Lovelady: You don’t know what you’re getting. So you really, when you say, “Okay, I’m coming to that church,” it’s, “Jesus, help me. I trust you.”

 

1:04:08.0 Bobby Suh: And every job, every vision and all the things you want to do, I think it’s fine. The ambition… We all had it in our 20s and we want to change the church world…

 

1:04:18.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, the ambition is…

 

1:04:19.7 Bobby Suh: Write books and stadiums and all this kind of… Podcasts. All these things are all there for us. And whether we project it as like, “We don’t want that,” or whatever, you have to do the honest work of, “I’m broken, and I need somebody who’s gone through it all and found Jesus to be far more beautiful than when you began. And I need them to love me through all my ups and downs, my angry phase, my ‘I’m done with ministry’ phase.” All those times, you’re not going to survive that and stay soft in your heart for the Spirit of God and for the church if you don’t have people speaking into your life, because they have nothing to gain from you other than your longevity in ministry, your flourishing in every way, in your family, as a single, in your future, and then long after they’re gone, that they’re going to carry the baton. You need people like that in your corner.

 

1:05:24.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Like the pastor that hired you. What I think is beautiful about that is he said, “Take a month to pray.” And the answer to the prayer didn’t come in some sort of, “Yeah, we agree intellectually,” or, “It makes sense for us to do this,” or, “We feel like the Lord has answered our prayer by some sort of secret gut feeling. Yeah, we have peace.” No, the answer to the prayer that that pastor said, “Spend the month praying,” he was the answer to that prayer in him saying, “Your story is…

 

1:06:02.6 Bobby Suh: “What I’m looking for.”

 

1:06:03.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. “Is what we want here.” And you’re like, “Oh, this is how the Lord answers prayer.”

 

1:06:05.6 Bobby Suh: It’s so crazy.

 

1:06:07.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And so the need for prayer for these young pastors… Just pray. Pray and ask Jesus to provide that person and watch him do it in surprising ways.

 

1:06:14.0 Bobby Suh: Yeah. Yeah.

 

1:06:20.1 Jim Lovelady: All right, so talk to me about person number two.

 

1:06:23.9 Bobby Suh: Yeah, the rejected. Like this is my…

 

1:06:26.4 Jim Lovelady: This may have been a hard episode to listen to.

 

1:06:28.6 Bobby Suh: Yeah. And maybe you’re listening and just going, “Man, that’s my life. That’s my world.” And I just want you to know that in this broken world, no one can fully see you. As much as their good intentions, they’ll just take you for what you’re presenting, and then they’ll receive that through their lens of their own trauma, their own ambition, their own, “What can you do for me? Are you going to give me life? Are you going to take from me?” Their own protective mechanism and all these things, that’s what they’re taking in. And because of that, you’re going to go out of your way to over-give and try to please them and love them to make them love you. And this is like a never-ending cycle of reaffirming your rejection, because you’re going overboard to attach yourself and to… It’s almost like a codependent relationship that you’re trying to start by projecting, “Oh, I’m worth keeping around.”

 

1:07:07.0 Jim Lovelady: Right, right, right.

 

1:07:45.5 Bobby Suh: And you’re overstretching yourself. And so if they choose to love you because you overstretched yourself, then that’s not you. That’s not actually you. You went overboard to make them love you.

 

1:07:59.0 Jim Lovelady: You’re identifying with, “Hey, my name is Jim, the rejected.”

 

1:08:01.9 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

1:08:04.7 Jim Lovelady: And I’ve attached this thing to my name that is not real. Jim the Rejected does not exist.

 

1:08:11.5 Bobby Suh: And so therefore you overstretch to kind of make up for this feeling you always had that, “I’m the rejected.” And then it reinforces itself when they love you for a moment, and then when you can’t do it anymore because you’re burnt out from giving too much, then you go, “Oh, I knew it. I’m not good enough. No one can love me.”

 

1:08:23.9 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

1:08:36.3 Bobby Suh: Versus I think what God did was He was stripping away this thing that I was controlling. Idols of control and comfort. I’m looking for comfort in other people by controlling what they see and how I perform and all of that. And He took me through all of that journey to be like, “Can you let go?” And it’s like, you can’t. Not until you are absolutely certain that you will never be rejected in this life. Like no matter what happens in life, you are infinitely… And no one can ever take that love, that infinite, unending, pursuing, all-consuming love from you. And once that becomes certain, then you don’t overstretch to be loved. And you can hold these two opposing ideas of, “I am both a great pastor and a terrible pastor.”

 

1:09:05.7 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

1:09:35.0 Bobby Suh: “I am both a great father and a terrible father.” And instead of projecting an image of what you want people to see, for the first time in your life, you can hold both and say, “Both of these people are infinitely loved by God. And I have to be okay with that.” So when people say, “Oh, you’re a little more selfish than I thought,” you’re like, “Oh, you don’t know.” Like how selfish this thing goes. I’m always fighting to be less selfish, but you don’t know. And once you begin to do that heart work and your heart begins to actually believe God’s love, the gospel, what it says, that it’s immutable, that it’s deep and it’s by His sacrifice and not what you do, you’re forgiven… Like all of that, once it sinks in, then you are far less like trying to control people to love you, manipulate people to love you, or offer them something to love you. You just kind of come and go, “This is me.”

 

1:10:14.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah.

 

1:10:40.6 Bobby Suh: Both the good and the bad.

 

1:10:41.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So Jim the Rejected isn’t a real person. Jim the Beloved of God is the real person.

 

1:10:50.1 Bobby Suh: But that Jim that is beloved carries, just because of the gospel’s nature, both the one who sins and hurts people and projects images, but also the one who absolutely loves his family, the church, and fights for all the good things.

 

1:11:11.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So Jim the Rejected, when I act like Jim the Rejected, I bring to life this thing that is not my true, not the true me. But still, Jim the Rejected is beloved of God. Jim the Rejected is loved.

 

1:11:25.1 Bobby Suh: That Jim the Rejected is so loved by God that He’s patient enough and sovereign enough to bring you to a place where that becomes… He exposes that to be so real that you can’t deny it and you can’t cover over it with degrees and podcasts and, you know, like, size of churches and all the stuff. He brings about an exposure that is so painful and yet so beautiful that you just go, “Oh, my God, that’s me.” And at that point, He goes, “I love that Jim.”

 

1:11:44.4 Jim Lovelady: Hmm. Yeah.

 

1:12:03.7 Bobby Suh: And it changes your world.

 

1:12:04.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

1:12:05.9 Bobby Suh: And so to whoever is carrying this burden of “I am this rejected,” I want you to stop looking for it in people, in churches, in all these venues where you’re hoping… Your parents and all these things. So you have all these, like, “My parents don’t love me,” so you cancel them, right? This whole culture of, “They didn’t love me the right way and I’m the way I am because…” all that stuff. It’s true, yes, in the sense of your lens interpreted their actions and piety and making sure you go to… All that stuff in the wrong way, right? Not considering the whole system of who they are.

 

1:12:43.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

1:12:47.2 Bobby Suh: But in that, for the first time, you have to allow him to say, “It’s not your parents that you’re looking for. It’s not your best friend or your wife that you were always looking for. It’s this unattainable, unconditional love that no one can give to you.” It’s the freeing, endless, infinite love that for some reason we cannot get by reading a book, listening to a podcast, a sermon, attending church all our life. It is this beautiful, beautiful journey that each of us have to go through. And at the end of all the valleys and pastures, there’s a moment when it becomes like, “You are.”

 

1:13:12.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

1:13:38.1 Bobby Suh: “And I will never change my mind.” And it becomes so concrete that you want to build that foundation for the rest of your life.

 

1:13:43.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

1:13:48.2 Bobby Suh: And then you begin to dream about, what does it look like for me to give that to every member of my church and every young pastor or minister or that youth group student or college student. Ministry all of a sudden changes.

 

1:13:59.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

1:14:06.7 Bobby Suh: Like you’re not thinking growth patterns and systems and hiring experts. Like, how do you do this? You’re just kind of like, yeah, yeah, we’ll get all of that, and we want the expertise and all of that. But at the end of the day, I’m living for someone to get what I received freely. Like, I didn’t offer anything other than my broken, messy, rejected life.

 

1:14:29.8 Jim Lovelady: It was freely given, and it created freedom.

 

1:14:31.9 Bobby Suh: Yeah.

 

1:14:34.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Oh, that’s so good. We could keep talking. I’m going to hear you keep talking. We’re going to go to lunch and we’re going to keep talking, but I’m turning the recording off.

 

1:14:39.2 Bobby Suh: Okay.

 

1:14:44.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That was fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing.

 

1:14:46.2 Bobby Suh: Yeah, man. That’s my life story, so.

 

1:14:51.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Well, it’s like, I don’t envy you.

 

1:14:52.8 Bobby Suh: Yeah. I don’t want this for anyone.

 

1:14:53.9 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

1:14:54.9 Bobby Suh: Like, I could never wish this upon anyone.

 

1:14:58.5 Jim Lovelady: But the gift that you received on the other end of that, man, everyone longs for that kind of grace, longs to experience that kind of love, that kind of freedom. So thank you for sharing.

 

1:15:08.0 Bobby Suh: Thanks, Jim.

 

[music]

 

1:15:17.5 Jim Lovelady: This episode reminds me of the moment that Jesus started His ministry, when He went down to the Jordan to be baptized and received the blessing for His mission from His Heavenly Father, who said, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” You know, that statement belongs as much to you as it does to Jesus. Believe it. When you belong to Jesus, this statement belongs to you. You are the beloved of God in whom He is well pleased. And when that hits you, it changes you. It makes you invincible. It empowers you to live sacrificially. It’s how Jesus began His ministry, and it’s the only way that you can live your life on mission. Now, I’m sure that you could tell that Bobby had done a lot of work in his heart to come to these new realizations about his own life and to experience the pleasure of God for him. He followed the experience of rejection and discovered deep desires at play. And he discovered idolatry in his heart, and he learned to let the Lord wash all of that away to reveal his true identity as a beloved child of God. And I want to share with you some resources for your pilgrim journey that will help you do the same. First, I want to invite you to the Gospel-Centered Life mini retreat the weekend of November 6th and 7th in McLean, Virginia. If this episode stirred things up in your heart, this retreat is a great place to begin to let Jesus minister to you in those areas of hurt and confusion. And if you’re curious to see how Jesus wants to reveal Himself to you, or if you’re desperate to experience His freedom, join me and the rest of the Renewal team November 6th and 7th in McLean, Virginia. Link in the show notes. In our conversation, I mentioned two categories of people that I hope experience the closeness of their Savior as Bobby was telling his story. The first is pastors and ministry leaders who’ve experienced the difficulty of ministry. If that’s you, I want you to pick up this book by Jack Miller called The Heart of a Servant Leader: Letters by Jack Miller. If you lack wisdom in leading others and you feel alone, this book is a reminder that the Lord sees you and wants to guide you by His Spirit. This is one of my favorite books by Jack Miller. And if you resonate with the second category that we mentioned and you’ve experienced deep rejection, I’ve got another book by Jack Miller. It’s called Dealing with Rejection: How to Respond to Deep Hurt. This is a mini-book, so it’s a quick read, but you can come back to it over and over again as you walk with Jesus, wrestling with Jesus with these subjects and learning how to deal with rejection. Links to these resources are in the show notes. Share this episode. I know that you will, because I’m sure that you know someone who needs to hear this. Follow Serge on our YouTube channel. Go to give.serge.org to support the ministry of Serge and pray for the missionaries that you know. And take time today to quiet your heart, to let Jesus remind you that you are a beloved child of God who will never be rejected. You are deeply loved and called to follow your Savior on mission today. So as you go, receive His blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you, turn His bright eyes to you and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God, life everlasting. Amen.

 

[music]

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