How Grace Transforms Our Conversations About Race

[Music]

Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His kingdom.

[music]

0:00:23.4 Jim Lovelady: Hello beloved, welcome to season four of Grace at the Fray. Over the previous seasons, you may have noticed some patterns that keep coming up in every episode. So if you’re playing Grace at the Fray bingo, you’ll quickly fill out your card with phrases like Kingdom centered prayer, gospel renewal, ministry from weakness, propulsion of grace, sonship, adoption, lifestyle repentance, cheer up, you’re a lot worse than you think you are, but God’s grace is way more profound than you could ever imagine. Well, in this season, of course, I’m going to continue to explore these theological concepts. After all, these ideas are the DNA of Serge as a missions sending organization. But a fundamental part of our DNA is that we are continuously pushing our theology from our head to our heart, to our actions. That’s why we say gospel renewal leads to mission. So if the gospel is real, it’s real and impactful for the nitty gritty, the mundane, stuck in traffic at home, doing chores, dealing with conflict at work and home, and learning how to forgive and receive forgiveness for even the dumbest things. If the gospel is real, it’s real for things like when someone betrays you or when the grief is more than you could ever imagine it would be, or when you’re suffering seems so meaningless. If the gospel is real, it’s real for hopeful situations about politics and issues of identity and even the art of hospitality. How deep does your gospel go? Do the implications of Jesus’s lordship reach into the nooks and crannies of your heart? Or is it all just a nice idea, more like a philosophy of life than actually a relationship with the divine? Well this season we’re going to be talking about all these things to test the hypothesis that the gospel is real for every aspect of life. So today, go big or go home, I want to start this season off with a conversation about race and racism. If the gospel reaches into every nook and cranny of our existence and brings restoration and wholeness, that means it’s real and life-changing for issues of race. This is obviously a tough subject, especially in our culture, and I have so much to learn. That’s why I asked my friend Irwyn Ince to teach me how to have gospel-centered conversations about race. Irwyn is a husband, father, pastor, coach, and the coordinator of Mission to North America, the church planting arm of the Presbyterian Church in America. He’s also the author of an amazing little book called 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘉𝘦𝘢𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘧𝘶𝘭 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘺: 𝘜𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘺, 𝘋𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘪𝘵𝘺, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘊𝘩𝘶𝘳𝘤𝘩 𝘢𝘵 𝘐𝘵’𝘴 𝘉𝘦𝘴𝘵. I want you to get this book, so I’m going to tell you right now, follow the link that I’ll have in the show notes. Listen, I devoured this book. That means underlining and notes in the margins and journaling on blank pages. Have you ever read a book and felt like you were in conversation with its author? Well, that’s what happened to me with this book. And then, I got to go hang out with this author. Irwyn came into the studio, and we had a conversation that was profound, and it was so helpful for me, and I know it will be helpful for you. And as we begin, I want you to have in your mind a strange little story from Mark 8, where Jesus heals a blind man. And he goes like this. They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought to him a blind man and begged him to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village. And when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, Do you see anything? And he looked up and he said, I see people, but they look like trees walking. Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again, and he opened his eyes, and his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Is the gospel big enough to hold a conversation about race and racism? Can the gospel heal you and help you see people the way God sees them? Come hang out with Irwyn and I, as he teaches me how to have gospel-centered conversations about race.

[music]

0:04:40.1 Jim Lovelady: Well, Irwyn.

0:04:41.8 Irwyn Ince: Hi, Jim.

0:04:43.3 Jim Lovelady: Welcome to Grace at the Fray, man.

0:04:44.0 Irwyn Ince: Thank you. Glad to be in the place.

0:04:47.6 Jim Lovelady: I’m assuming that after a long couple days of board meetings that you’re a little exhausted and you’re about to head back to DC.

0:04:56.5 Irwyn Ince: I am, a little bit. I’m making you, I’ve got my espresso so.

0:05:00.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah. We’re charging it up. So I appreciate you giving a little bit of time.

0:05:07.7 Irwyn Ince: It’s a pleasure.

0:05:08.6 Jim Lovelady: I heard from a friend, we have a mutual friend. He’s like, hey, talk to him about how he’s a CrossFit coach. You’re a CrossFit coach? 

0:05:19.0 Irwyn Ince: Yes, yes, yes, yes. So yeah, my part-time, like my side hustle is CrossFit and kettlebells. So I coach at a local gym in DC, usually just one morning a week. I travel a lot for ministry work.

0:05:42.0 Jim Lovelady: That’s awesome. What’s it like to coach CrossFit? 

0:05:44.9 Irwyn Ince: Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s actually a lot of fun. So it’s a space where you’re going to engage people from all walks of life, people with faith in Christ, people with no faith in Christ, people with no professed faith at all. And I actually wanted to be in that space. So just to back up, I had, as a pastor, I was spending most of my time, as many pastors do, with believers in the church and ministry, shepherding, coming alongside. And I wanted places and spaces to intentionally be with folks from all kinds of walks of life who don’t necessarily know the Lord. And it is a fun thing to take people through a fitness journey, frankly.

0:06:41.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:06:43.2 Irwyn Ince: Everybody wants to be in good health. They come because they want to grow and to become stronger and fitter and learning how to teach proper movement techniques and all it’s just.

0:07:00.9 Jim Lovelady: But you can’t help but do that as a pastor. And that’s what’s cool about it. I did years ago at my old, old church. I was invited to do, I almost said Sonship. A muscle-up clinic.

0:07:17.6 Irwyn Ince: Oh Wow.

0:07:18.7 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause I was a gymnast in college, so I was teaching…

0:07:23.6 Irwyn Ince: I need to have you come to my gym and teach that clinic.

[laughter]

0:07:26.4 Jim Lovelady: Well it’s funny ’cause I’m teaching like the gymnastics way, which is, with this elegance and everyone’s looking at me they’re like, yeah, but can you do that fast? Like make that happen like this and lots and I was like, oh I got you. And then I went through what is it a circuit? 

0:07:42.0 Irwyn Ince: Yeah.

0:07:44.0 Jim Lovelady: And it totally kicked my butt. I haven’t worked out that hard in a long time. So I have a huge appreciation for, that’s an it’s an intense workout. So I was going to challenge you to an arm wrestle but then I mean.

0:08:06.7 Irwyn Ince: Yeah listen.

0:08:06.8 Jim Lovelady: I’ve got your book right here. It’s in the way, your book is in the way So I mean.

0:08:09.3 Irwyn Ince: So we won’t do it.

0:08:10.4 Jim Lovelady: We won’t do that.

0:08:10.5 Irwyn Ince: We won’t do it. Now if you’re doing strict muscle-ups you might win in an arm wrestling contest so anyway.

0:08:16.0 Jim Lovelady: No, so my son and I have been watching all the Rocky movies. Oh, yeah, how can you be in Philly and not. We skipped Rocky V though we moved to Creed and I realized it’s like this is fascinating because I want to have a conversation with you about race and Serge is trying to reflect the people that we serve and look like, the diverse community of people that we work with and we just happen to be working at a global scale, we’re working with every tongue tribe and nation. So we want our partnerships and we want the people that we work with to reflect that, right? And so we’re constantly strategizing okay, what does it look like for those kinds of partnerships to flourish, but we’re constantly having these conversations of like well right now we’re predominantly white. What does it look like to have helpful conversations about race and so I get the opportunity to hang out with you and I read your book and I’m watching the Rocky films. And I’m like, oh my gosh, I never recognized the racism in the Rocky films. Oh my gosh, and then I watch Creed and how it subverts that. And it’s almost like Creed is a redemption story where the Rocky movies were about Rocky until you watch Creed and then you realize the Rocky movies are actually about Apollo and then his son. And I mean, from watching Creed I haven’t watched the other two movies, but from watching Creed I was like, oh this is Sylvester Stallone’s redemption, or at least pursuing redemption ’cause by the end of the movie, he’s like you taught me, you taught me. Anyway, so I’m watching these knowing that I’m going to hang out with you and I’m like, I need this dude to teach me. I need you to teach me how to have helpful healthy conversations about race. And so whatever part of your book we get to I mean I have some quotes, but I’d love to just hear your story and sit under you, hit me.

[laughter]

0:10:44.8 Irwyn Ince: Okay well let me just share a little bit about my story here in getting to the answer to your question and you’re a pastor. I’m a pastor so we can tell long stories, we can go for a minute, but I’m a native New Yorker. I grew up in the church. Was baptized at about eight months old at Union United Methodist Church in Brooklyn but I was one who ended up rejecting the faith as a teenager in high school just ’cause I was disinterested not because I was hostile toward the Christian faith, but I became hostile when I went to college up in Harlem City College of New York joined an organization on campus called the Sons of Africa. And at that point I was part of it’s the mid ’80s to late ’80s, The Afrocentric movement and that was pretty large at the time at least in urban cities and in that movement, I became hostile towards the Christian faith. I began to view it as the white man’s religion.

0:11:58.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, it’s getting in the way.

0:12:00.7 Irwyn Ince: Yeah as a tool that had been used to oppress and enslave people of African descent in America. And of course, there’s truth there in that second part but the Christian faith is not the white man’s religion, but I was embracing that. Eventually as I write in the book, God in his kindness rejected my rejection of him.

0:12:22.2 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah, I think I underlined that part that’s so good.

0:12:26.6 Irwyn Ince: And brought me to faith my wife and I when we were in Washington DC at a historic African-american church we were worshiping there because my wife had some family members who invited us and we didn’t know anyone in the area and so we went. And it was at that point now I’m looking at the scriptures through the lens of faith. The things that I had learned in my childhood at church are kind of flooding back to my memory. But now I’m recognizing this language the Bible uses this familial language the Bible uses to describe God’s people, this seeming expectation with its roots in the Old Testament and the Old Covenant, but the seeming expectation that when Christ comes, part of what will happen with the outpouring of the Spirit is that people from every tribe and tongue and nation will come. He will bring them to himself and that his church will begin reflecting that future reality today.

0:13:39.9 Jim Lovelady: Right now. Yeah.

0:13:42.4 Irwyn Ince: And having that conviction, and then I realized and I said, oh, well I go to church and literally everybody is black. Everybody. And there’s a church over there and everybody’s white. And then there’s Asian churches.And I just said, well wait, like I know there are historical reasons at a horizontal level why we have this division and segregation in the church in the United States in particular. But the Lord gave me what, I borrow this phrase from Dr. King, a divine dissatisfaction about the mono-ness  of most churches to press into what I ultimately call beautiful community in the here and now. And so what are the ways of engaging that to start to answer your question? First is to know that, okay, here’s my heart, right? Is that really where my heart is situated? As the Lord brought me to this place of conviction that I actually, I want to live into a depth of love of neighbor across lines of deep difference.

0:15:07.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, the conviction is going to move to action.

0:15:09.3 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. Like it’s, that I’m convinced that this is what God would have me and us do and be. This is where, this is a, this is an implication of the gospel. That is not a tangent to the gospel.

0:15:30.5 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah, this is not…

0:15:34.8 Irwyn Ince: That’s not a nice to have if we want.

0:15:36.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Have you gotten pushback on that? 

0:15:38.5 Irwyn Ince: Not a whole lot because it’s hard to argue when you’re studying the scriptures, it’s hard to say, look at what we see happening when the church is birthed.

0:15:51.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:15:56.5 Irwyn Ince: Why does Paul in Colossians chapter 3 verse 11 say to the Colossians, hear Colossians, there isn’t Greek and Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free, but Christ is all.

0:16:10.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:16:10.0 Irwyn Ince: And in all. He says that ’cause that’s who’s in the church, Greek and Jew, barbarian, Scythian, enslaved people, free people.

0:16:17.4 Jim Lovelady: All these people going, hey, I just found liberation in Christ, but I’m not one of you. What are you going to do about it? 

0:16:23.6 Irwyn Ince: Right after that, he says, now put on then as God’s chosen ones who are holy in love, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, bearing with one another, forgiving one another. As the Lord has forgiven you, you must also forgive. And above all these things, put on love, which binds everything together.

0:16:48.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, the glue.

0:16:48.6 Irwyn Ince: Right? Why does he have to say that? Because all of these people who are divided outside of Christ are now together in the same worshiping community, and they’ve got to learn what it looks like to love one another. They’ve got to learn what it looks like to be patient, to be kind, to have humility. And that’s actually the answer to the question. It’s like, how do I engage these things? First, as the Lord put this conviction in my heart that this is a part of what it means to live into the good news of the gospel. And then how do I do this with a humility, with a kindness and a compassionate heart that puts me in a position of a learner? 

0:17:44.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah.

0:17:48.5 Irwyn Ince: Less of a teller and more of a learner. And this is not afterward, but all throughout, I’ve got to be praying. I’ve got to be praying that the Spirit would one, give me eyes to see the opportunities he’s putting in front of me for this pursuit, and two, be at work giving me wisdom in the midst of it. And part of that wisdom is grasping the means of grace that are at my disposal. So there’s no way to do the pursuit without messing up.

0:18:34.0 Jim Lovelady: So, what do you do when you mess up? If you’re hidden in Christ, if you have the garments of Christ as opposed to all the other garments of my identity, if I have the garments of Christ, okay, I can mess up.

0:18:47.5 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. That’s exactly right.

0:18:51.2 Jim Lovelady: The scariest thing in the world right now is for someone like me to say, hey, I’m a racist. And, but Jesus has liberated me so that I can say before you and I can say before the internet, I’m a racist. Yeah. And the Lord has convicted me and shown me all sorts of ways throughout my life that I think I’m better because of, well I mean because of a lot of reasons, but specifically for racial reasons.

0:19:23.0 Irwyn Ince: That has become seemingly perceived as the unpardonable sin.

0:19:29.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:19:30.8 Irwyn Ince: The sin of racism. And it is challenging because people will say, well, I don’t consciously harbor any ill will towards people because of their race. And it might be true that I don’t have this conscious harboring, I’m not thinking this evil thoughts about you because you’re white or because you’re… And at the same time.

0:20:05.2 Jim Lovelady: I’m not going out of my way to make someone’s life miserable.

0:20:07.7 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:20:08.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s not what this is about.

0:20:09.2 Irwyn Ince: And at the same time, do we… We miss how we are shaped and formed in our perceptions about groups of people by the cultural milieu that we are a part of, how that actually plays into the ways in which we see people. Not just individual people, but often groups of people. And to ask the Lord as a psalmist  says, search me and know me right? Try me. See if there’d be any grievous way within me. Like when we pray that we just putting limits on that, like.

0:20:48.8 Jim Lovelady: It’s a dangerous prayer.

0:20:49.8 Irwyn Ince: Except in this area.

0:20:51.2 Jim Lovelady: Exactly.

0:20:51.8 Irwyn Ince: I don’t want to find out anything is wrong with me in the area of racial prejudice. That’s not, that one is off limits.

[laughter]

0:21:00.8 Jim Lovelady: Search me everywhere except there.

0:21:03.1 Irwyn Ince: Right. And so the… So it’s not, it is not the case to say, oh, everyone, every white person, every white Christian has to confess I’m a racist to be free. Like, but we have to be willing to say, how am I influenced in the way I view people, in the way that I view people that’s out of accord with how God would have me view them.

0:21:35.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:21:36.7 Irwyn Ince: How am I influenced by the cultural forces of the day inside and outside of the church that has me viewing people in a dehumanizing way. And engaging that, and not running from it, knowing that it’s there somewhere. There’s some ways in which I am prone to dehumanize image bearers.

0:22:06.7 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:22:08.2 Irwyn Ince: And trying to… And striving to find out what that is so that I can confess and repent and turn from my wicked ways.

0:22:16.2 Jim Lovelady: That’s why I love that your book is called The Beautiful Community because there’s… It’s based on well consider beauty [laughter] two words. Camel, three words. Camel Beauty contest. [laughter] are you serious? [laughter] If you do not, if listeners don’t know what that is, they’re going to have to read the book.

0:22:34.8 Irwyn Ince: Yeah. You just read the book.

0:22:36.2 Jim Lovelady: What is beauty? And then to look at the beauty of God.

0:22:40.2 Irwyn Ince: Yes.

0:22:40.6 Jim Lovelady: And then to look at the beauty of God in image bearers of God. And then to see that, oh, the inherent dignity of that person is the thing that makes it where it’s like, I’m compelled. It’s more than compelled. I’m called. This is… I’m called to give the love and dignity and to find the beauty in every person who bears God’s image.

0:23:11.2 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. That’s exactly right. To see what God saw and did in creating every person to look and think to yourself image.

0:23:28.5 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:23:30.3 Irwyn Ince: This is an image bearer of God, that I’m before as I write in the book that I’m in the presence of royalty.

0:23:40.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:40.7 Irwyn Ince: When I am before every human person I see is royalty. There’s a regalness in God’s design. I think I’m going to misquote this, but if I think it was CS Lewis who said, if we looked at people and saw not just who they are, but who they…

0:24:02.7 Jim Lovelady: Will be.

0:24:03.4 Irwyn Ince: Will be in glory, we would be tempted to worship them. That’s what it means to reflect at the glory of God.

0:24:14.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:24:15.1 Irwyn Ince: That’s what it means to be image [laughter] We are reflecting God. Reflecting his glory to the world. And so to have that, that’s just a… That constant reminder. I’m reminding myself as I say it, why? ‘Cause I’m about to drive back from Philadelphia to Washington DC on the interstate. [laughter] And I will come across plenty of people on the highway. I will not want to regard his image.

0:24:48.6 Jim Lovelady: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

0:24:52.0 Irwyn Ince: Right.

0:24:54.1 Jim Lovelady: So when you say all these things, my brain goes, “Oh, absolutely.” But then the reality of where we live is, like you talk about the crown has fallen from our head. There’s a brokenness and a broken reality to it. And oftentimes, and this is really like, this is what I wanted to get to. I marked up these few pages more than anything else because I probably, ’cause this is where I was convicted, this is driving down the interstate [laughter] I mean, I wasn’t driving [laughter] This is where the Holy Spirit met me because I go, “Oh, absolutely.” And then you say things like, “White transparency” and I’ve had a lot of conversations with folks where it’s like, I don’t know how to navigate like even before you said this and I’ll read it in a second, but even before you said it like I don’t remember who did this podcast series, Whiteness, I don’t know if you’ve and it was it was convicting, and you talk about race being a social construct and all of these things and then. And so I’m like, okay, what is this, what are we dealing with and the puzzle pieces, maybe puzzle pieces isn’t the best analogy, but it’s like things are all over the place. But or maybe it’s something like all these ideas about what this looks like on how to love one another how to the ideas of treating one another with dignity and respect and create a sense of belonging is as another word that I love. It’s all throughout your book hospitality is well, like okay. Well, what am I not seeing right? So then you come down and you go consequently, it’s difficult for whites to explain what it means to be white and I’m like, yep. Shoot and what does that mean? What does that look like? So I want to hear… Yeah, speak into that. I want to hear what you, I want to hear you say more about that.

[music]

0:27:02.5 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray. And this week we’re praying for the teams in North Africa and Peru. So would you pray with me? Lord, we pray your blessing over these folks. Give them joy in their work. In your Kingdom and the pleasure of your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with one another with family members and children and with the people they serve. Heal sicknesses liberate the enslaved protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness. Restore the joy of your salvation and let your Kingdom come and your will be done in these places as it is in heaven. We pray all these things in your name. Amen.

0:28:00.5 Jim Lovelady: Now back to the conversation. Also, all right. Sorry, I’m trying to give you more fodder for this, just sharing where my heart is. I see a video that’s like hey raise your hand if you’re proud to be white. And like on this side of the line if you’re proud to be white and this side of the line if you’re not and it’s like one girl in a group of other people that aren’t proud and I’m like what’s going on? I don’t… I don’t know. Anyway, I’m just… And if.

0:28:28.0 Irwyn Ince: No, no Jim and if you asked a room full of African-Americans, raise your hand if you’re proud to be black. You’d see a lot of hands go up, you’d see a lot of hands go up without hesitation, now the challenge is in this is that the idea or the concept of whiteness was forged in distinction to what it was not.

0:29:05.3 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yep.

0:29:06.8 Irwyn Ince: It was not a… There’s not a positive definition that this is whiteness. It was like no, it means you’re not this.

0:29:17.2 Jim Lovelady: Right, right.

0:29:19.3 Irwyn Ince: You’re not black, you’re not yellow, you’re not red. And it became a target for in the United States for people to aspire for immigrants to aspire to. It became a category. Maybe because they knew okay, if I am categorized as white then all kinds of benefits accrue to me in the society.

0:29:50.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, if  I’m no longer Irish, no longer Italian, no longer English or whatever. No longer Greek. No longer Albanian. No longer whatever European country of descent.

0:30:01.8 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:30:02.3 Jim Lovelady: But if I’m suddenly white, and that what a mess.

0:30:08.1 Irwyn Ince: It is a mess. It is a mess that was created for the purpose of establishing and maintaining power and control.

0:30:19.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:30:22.6 Irwyn Ince: And not just power and control but over resources and access to well-being right? So it was a hierarchical structure that was set up. Isabel Wilkerson does a good job in her book Caste. Where she helpfully says no what you have in the history of race and racism in the United States is more like akin, is more akin to a caste system that we see duplicated across the globe.

0:30:57.4 Jim Lovelady: Interesting.

0:30:58.6 Irwyn Ince: We see caste systems in other cultures certainly India being the most prominent example. But you could go…

0:31:05.2 Jim Lovelady: Where it’s blatant.

0:31:05.8 Irwyn Ince: Yes, right. Oh blatant. Yeah, you can go to Nazi Germany you can see caste system, she said that’s a better way of grasping the history of race relations in the United States don’t just view it as something that’s isolated to this moment in history, but it’s just a it may be a something that had was more brutal than many other epochs of history, but it’s more akin to a caste system and that’s part of, it’s part of the challenge because those categories are still with us.

0:31:41.5 Jim Lovelady: Right. Yeah. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:43.4 Irwyn Ince: They’re still with us. We still use those categories: White, Black or African-American, right? Hispanic non-black Hispanic. Those are the categories that we use to classify people still in the United States and so what to do about it. Well, It does no good, in my opinion, to ignore it as if it’s a non-thing.

0:32:11.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:13.6 Irwyn Ince: But to say, okay, my sense of who I am has to go deeper than that. I have to be able to say, okay, I can understand that because I am categorized as White. There are still an overarching ways benefits that accrue to me in society and culture. Alright. And at the same time, it’s a thing that can’t be defined.

0:32:53.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s… I’m feeling that I’m feeling both of those things. Yeah. That’s really helpful. Yeah.

0:32:57.9 Irwyn Ince: Right. It’s a thing that can’t be defined. So I’ve got to find a sense of true identity someplace else. A center someplace else.

0:33:09.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:33:09.7 Irwyn Ince: And so, and this is of course where our faith in Christ…

[laughter]

0:33:17.3 Jim Lovelady: Is the no brainer.

0:33:17.8 Irwyn Ince: Makes all the difference.

[chuckle]

0:33:20.2 Irwyn Ince: Right. And so even, and it’s true. Even look, even in the African-American context, we’ve dealt with over the centuries, and still not so much now, but still in some ways, the issue of colorism. Why is colorism a thing that, the lighter skinned you are, the more attractive you are. Historically, that’s been the messaging in the black community. It’s not as much as it had been in the past, but certainly that was a thing. The brown paper bag test, they would talk about.

0:34:04.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And like, straightening your hair or all those things.

0:34:07.2 Irwyn Ince: Closest you can get right physiologically to whiteness, the better. I mean, we are so messed up, so messed up.

[laughter]

0:34:21.6 Jim Lovelady: The crown has fallen far from the head.

0:34:23.8 Irwyn Ince: The crown has fallen far from the head and we’re still dealing with the repercussions of it. This is part of the problem is people say, oh, we just need to move beyond it and not talk about it. The more you talk about it, the more divisive you are. No, no, no, no. The cracks are there already.

0:34:44.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:34:45.7 Irwyn Ince: We’re still dealing with all of the fallout of centuries. It doesn’t get turned around [laughter] in a generation. And so we have to be honest about how we got to where we are and what does it look like to actually pursue this beautiful community in Jesus name. So I’ll stop there. I don’t even know if I answered what you asked.

0:35:11.6 Jim Lovelady: Well, I mean, I think it’s helpful that there’s like a mutual encouragement when we say, hey, you know you really, you belong to Jesus.

0:35:24.1 Irwyn Ince: Yeah.

0:35:24.4 Jim Lovelady: Who are you? Whoever he says I am. What are you all about? Whatever he tells me to do.

0:35:30.3 Irwyn Ince: What is the truest thing about you? 

0:35:32.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. What is the truest thing about you? 

0:35:34.5 Irwyn Ince: What is the truest thing about you? And the truest thing about me is I’m image.

0:35:39.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:35:40.8 Irwyn Ince: Redeemed and renewed by the lamb. That’s the truest thing about me. And with specificity. So my, the hue of my skin is not an accident. My cultural distinctive…

0:35:57.0 Jim Lovelady: It doesn’t go away.

0:35:58.1 Irwyn Ince: No, they’re not, ’cause they’re not accidental. He’s done that. He’s put me in these, he’s made me this way in these contexts, so I don’t want to ignore those things. And act as though they don’t matter at all. And I want to say, oh, what are the distinctives of my cultural context in milieu? 

0:36:28.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:36:29.2 Irwyn Ince: And now that is part of the, just back to your first question, that’s part of the challenge around the issue of whiteness to say, well, what are the cultural distinctive of this thing? 

[laughter]

0:36:40.8 Jim Lovelady: Well, I’m imagining that scenario, step on this side of the line, if you’re proud to be white. Step on that side of the line, if you’re not. And the people of God’s Kingdom who look like me, we have to say, yeah, I’m proud of the way that the Lord made me. I have to be proud of the way that the Lord made me. And it’s just weird, it’s weird. It’s interesting in this culture, the way that we’re, this conversation happens, it doesn’t surprise me that the majority of the people that were asked that question said no. But it’s partly the confusion of like, I don’t even know what that means.

0:37:20.7 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:37:21.0 Jim Lovelady: Well, okay. Well, I’m, whatever it means, I kind of don’t want to play that game anymore. I want to play the game of I’m proud… Well, I’ll answer it this way. I’m proud of the way that the Lord made me and I trust him. I’m going to trust him with that.

0:37:34.6 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:37:35.1 Jim Lovelady: And I’m going to practice humility with that.

0:37:38.6 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. Because to say, oh… The reason people I think wouldn’t say, oh, I’m proud to be white, because that’s associated with being anti everyone else historically.

0:37:53.3 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:37:54.2 Irwyn Ince: Like they used to say.

0:37:55.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:37:56.3 Irwyn Ince: White pride means I’m against.

0:38:00.0 Jim Lovelady: Or immediately better than.

0:38:00.3 Irwyn Ince: Or better than I’m a hierarchy. I’m proud because I’m at the top. And so there’s a negative connotation because of the reality of history.

0:38:10.3 Jim Lovelady: Well, it’s… That’s how it started.

0:38:12.1 Irwyn Ince: That’s how it started.

0:38:12.3 Jim Lovelady: That very thing. Yeah.

0:38:12.9 Irwyn Ince: And so while, when you will hear, the James Brown, say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud. Say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud. And why were black people saying that, it’s not to say, “Hey, we’re better than white people.” It’s to say, No. What we’ve been told over the centuries is we’re nothing.

0:38:31.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:38:33.6 Irwyn Ince: That you’re nobody, you don’t, your life doesn’t matter as much. You are only useful for what you can do for the benefit of the hierarchy.

0:38:43.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:38:45.0 Irwyn Ince: And so that’s where that language came from. [laughter] And so it’s just the historical realities that play into why you would have that response with a one group of white people and a different response to the group of black people.

0:39:12.2 Jim Lovelady: It’s like what you’re doing at your church is the liturgical flipping all of that on its head. Where every Sunday everybody has to, by the end of the service, everybody has to stand where they are on the side of the line where Jesus goes, you belong to me. So stand on that side of the line. Stand on the side where you belong.

0:39:33.6 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:39:34.2 Jim Lovelady: Stand on the side where you are loved.

0:39:35.9 Irwyn Ince: That’s right.

0:39:36.3 Jim Lovelady: And everyone is going to do that. Whatever cultural context they come from. Because suddenly by the end of the service, when you’re giving the benediction, you are igniting this beautiful community to go be that beautiful community everywhere they go. But it’s just like what you’re, what you do on a Sunday is this is where we’re rebuilding this.

0:40:00.4 Irwyn Ince: Yeah. Well, even before the benediction, the joy and the blessing of celebrating the Lord’s supper every Sunday. Is that right? Jesus said, blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the lamb and every Sunday we get to experience coming to the table together, and all of our differences know that Jesus is the host. Right? And this table gets longer and wider right? 

0:40:33.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah. The ever expanding table of grace.

0:40:38.1 Irwyn Ince: Ever expanding table of grace, right? And we get to be reminded as we come and we partake together that we are the body and all the differences… And you see it, right? And we taste and see that the Lord is good, and then get to go out with that blessing.

0:40:56.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:40:56.6 Irwyn Ince: With that Benediction, now let’s go live it.

0:41:00.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:00.8 Irwyn Ince: Let’s go live it in the world bearing witness to it right? 

0:41:02.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Okay. So at the very front of this book, I wrote down whatever’s good, whatever’s beautiful, think about such things. I feel like that’s what you’re doing in this book.

0:41:12.1 Irwyn Ince: Yes.

0:41:13.2 Jim Lovelady: You’re forcing me to go, hey, consider something really beautiful. Look at the triune God, look at how beautiful he is. But then I also wrote right here, belonging is a keyword, so go.

0:41:27.3 Irwyn Ince: Yeah. We were made so that, right. Every human being from the womb to the tomb is image and therefore is deserving of dignity, is of incomparable value. And we were not made to live out that dignity and value in isolation. We were not designed as lone rangers one-offs to go be… We were made for community. We image a God who is beautiful community. So we can’t just, like, we can’t talk about beauty without talking about God. A triune God who is the epitome of beauty and glory, absolute eternal beauty. We can’t talk about humanity without talking about community. And so we can’t talk about community without talking about belonging.

There’s a sense in which we see this in the scriptures that the Father, Son, and Spirit belong to each other. That the Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit. There is mutual glorification. There’s no disharmony or disunity in our triune God. They support one another. They promote one another’s purposes. Right? That’s mutual glorification. So we were made to belong to each other. We were made for that type of intimate connection. Yes we see that in God’s design for marriage in Genesis chapter two right? But we know that it wasn’t just for husband and wife because the command was, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth. Right. This iimagery was of a world full of image bearers, who together are the most powerful reflection of what it means to be the image of God. So our notion of belonging has to start there. That we were made for it. And that when we don’t experience belonging. Belonging… I don’t remember who I first read this from, but says, what it means to belong is the opposite of thinking to yourself, I’d rather be someplace else.

0:44:19.6 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:44:21.5 Irwyn Ince: Right. [laughter] You see that, whatever the opposite of that is. [laughter] Right.

0:44:25.5 Jim Lovelady: ‘Cause we would always rather be where we belong.

0:44:28.2 Irwyn Ince: Belong.

0:44:28.7 Jim Lovelady: Touché. Yeah.

0:44:31.1 Irwyn Ince: Right? 

0:44:31.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Amen.

0:44:32.4 Irwyn Ince: So, when you ask like, Oh, this is home. When you think about, like, I just like my body just relaxed when I said that, like, Oh, I’m home. I don’t have to put on any false pretense. I’m loved and known. I know and love. Right? Yep. It’s not that there’s no conflict, but there’s no separation, that it doesn’t go like that every person needs that. And you talk about, if you talk to therapists, and I’m going to forget what the term is, but how we are as adults very often is shaped by the kind of belonging we experienced as a child, the kind of sensibility of being loved and being known and being cared for.

0:45:34.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:45:35.5 Irwyn Ince: Right? We become malformed if we don’t have it as we develop, right? 

0:45:40.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

0:45:43.2 Irwyn Ince: And so, for God’s people to say and to see, oh, this is part of that calling. This is part of what the Spirit does, and I don’t remember who I first heard this from either, but I think it’s true. In the church, right? Very often, people need to feel they belong before they’ll believe.

0:46:08.6 Jim Lovelady: Right. Right.

0:46:11.2 Irwyn Ince: That belonging will very often precedes belief, right? That I’ve experienced an embrace, right? I’ve experienced this sense of dignity. I’ve been of what Esther Lightcap Meek calls personal beauty, right? She’s talking about a sense of individual, a sense of dignity, of worthiness, right? 

0:46:38.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:46:39.3 Irwyn Ince: But she uses the word personal beauty, and she says, the sense of personal beauty comes, I believe, only in the generous, self-giving gaze, the noticing regard of another person. That my sense of my own dignity and my own personal sense of beauty comes when I receive it from other people.

0:47:06.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

0:47:07.8 Irwyn Ince: She says, the moment we open our eyes, we’re looking for someone who’s looking for us.

0:47:14.2 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:47:17.4 Irwyn Ince: Right? And then she continues, she says, nevertheless, when human noticing regard fails to occur, it is available to all in the noticing regard of Jesus. She says, the noticing regard of Jesus in the Eucharist, at the table.

0:47:41.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:47:43.1 Irwyn Ince: She says, His is a face that will never go away, right? And so, belonging, this is all wrapped up in that sense of belonging, especially when you’re talking about pursuing beautiful community. So I have to, that noticing regard, seeing another human being and affirming them as being worthy of dignity in the way that I treat them, in the way that I interact with them, it’s a need that we all have. And it’s the only way for us to really do it is by the power of the Spirit, because we don’t get to discriminate as to who we are generous with hospitality and giving a sense of belonging to.

0:48:32.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah. Who am I to limit the mercy of God, the unlimited mercy of God? 

0:48:37.7 Irwyn Ince: Sure I don’t get to say, you know what? I think I don’t really like you. Did you rub me the wrong way? So you’re not worthy of experiencing any belonging.

0:48:49.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, yeah.

0:48:50.0 Irwyn Ince: We don’t get to do that in Christ.

0:48:53.1 Jim Lovelady: You’re encouraging this posture. It’s not just think about and believe that everyone belongs. It’s also have a posture of extending that belonging, so that we become a conduit. But what’s like, give me like one practical thing that I can do to turn that posture, which is kind of an attitude, it’s more than an attitude, it’s like, I’m ready. Put me in. Put me in, coach.

0:49:21.9 Irwyn Ince: Put me in, coach.

0:49:22.0 Jim Lovelady: That’s what a posture is. But like, well, Jesus goes, Okay, go get him. Go be generous toward that person, and I go, well, I don’t know what to do. So give me, yeah. What’s a practical thing? 

0:49:34.9 Irwyn Ince: Okay, let me say a few things here. It is crucial for us to be in healthy Christian community to do this. This is not an individual, isolated thing that I, again, I need to be in healthy Christian community that’s pursuing to love neighbors well across lines of difference I got. I need to be deeply rooted in that. I’m not this…

0:50:00.0 Jim Lovelady: CrossFit in.

0:50:01.1 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. Yeah.

0:50:01.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:50:02.1 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. I’m not this solo project. I’ve got to… So before I can think about, oh, my practical stuff that I do daily. Like, I need to be in healthy Christian community where I’m being shaped and formed by the good news of the gospel week in and week out, living into love where I am. And then I have to ask myself certain questions. Okay, well, who am I eating with? What’s the dinner table look like? Who are my circle of friends? Like, I can’t expect that, oh, we’re going to have all of this pursuit of beauty for community. If I’ve got no connections with folks that are not in my demographic, be that ethnically, racially, socioeconomically, generationally. Right? Do I actually have a cross-cultural life? And if I don’t, then I most assuredly need to be praying, again, for those opportunities, for the Lord to show me those opportunities, and then to be looking for opportunities to put myself in those spaces where I get to live into it. What are those places in my community? It might be as simple as literally asking the questions, who are the people in my neighborhood? Who are my neighbors? Hey, can I do… Honey, let’s do a prayer walk in the neighborhood. Let’s just walk. Meet people. Pray for opportunities to meet our neighbors, right? And see what the Lord does over the course of time. It doesn’t have to be this kind of super hard kind of programmed effort.

0:52:02.4 Jim Lovelady: It’s not a total change of lifestyle.

0:52:05.1 Irwyn Ince: No, it doesn’t have to be, it might have that in some respects, but no, it’s not.

0:52:10.4 Jim Lovelady: It doesn’t have to be.

0:52:11.5 Irwyn Ince: It doesn’t have to be. Where do I work? Where do I live? Where do I play? 

0:52:14.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:52:16.9 Irwyn Ince: Alright? 

0:52:18.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:52:18.5 Irwyn Ince: Where do I serve? With my brothers and sisters in Christ, where are we serving? How are we doing mercy and loving justice? 

0:52:29.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, and walking humbly with our God. Yeah. Oh man, well, I love that the way you end the book is about food. [laughter] I love it. And so much of our conversation today has been around belonging and hospitality and the very practical real aspects of life and how sitting at the table with people is a wonderful start, there’s a… In my mind, I think like church planting is all about go to church, worship God, go to church, care for one another, and eat with strangers.

0:53:16.1 Irwyn Ince: Right.

0:53:16.3 Jim Lovelady: Do those three things.

0:53:16.6 Irwyn Ince: Do those three things, yeah.

0:53:16.9 Jim Lovelady: You’ll get your church plant, but… So I brought… I didn’t bring communion. I mean we did have… We did have coffee.

0:53:26.1 Irwyn Ince: We did have coffee.

0:53:27.1 Jim Lovelady: So but I did bring dark chocolate.

0:53:28.3 Irwyn Ince: Oh, okay, okay.

0:53:30.2 Jim Lovelady: Because we can’t set a table, and not have…

0:53:32.2 Irwyn Ince: Yeah, man we should have had the dark chocolate with this.

0:53:35.9 Jim Lovelady: I wasn’t thinking about that. I was…

0:53:36.5 Irwyn Ince: It’s alright, no worries.

0:53:37.9 Jim Lovelady: Anyway, so this is Single Origin dark chocolate. I got it at Trader Joe’s.

0:53:45.8 Irwyn Ince: Okay. Okay.

0:53:47.7 Jim Lovelady: From Uganda.

0:53:47.9 Irwyn Ince: Nice.

0:53:48.4 Jim Lovelady: 85% fruity and full flavored Western Uganda, so…

0:53:52.4 Irwyn Ince: Okay. Beautiful.

0:53:53.5 Jim Lovelady: Here take eat.

0:53:53.9 Irwyn Ince: Oh, look at this. Amen.

0:53:57.1 Jim Lovelady: Brother it has been so fun. It’s been so fun hanging out with you and I feel like… What, am I supposed to get done in an hour? Is well, at least there’s been this conversation that started, and to think through pushing paradigms but always like whenever you push the paradigm, it’s always you end the book this way too, it’s always make sure when you get pushed when your paradigm gets pushed that you fall into the arms of Jesus.

0:54:23.8 Irwyn Ince: Yeah. That’s right.

0:54:24.3 Jim Lovelady: And when you do that, you’re going to fall into hope which is what you’re talking about at the end of the book.

0:54:30.2 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. That’s right. And recognizing we don’t get there till glory. This is our forever pursuit, there’s no…

0:54:42.4 Jim Lovelady: We can be patient. 

0:54:42.7 Irwyn Ince: That’s right. There’s no like, Oh I’ve arrived, we’ve arrived at the perfection of beautiful community, there’s no more… No. When Jesus comes back to set all things, right? Yes for sure, but we get to be in pursuit of it by his power today. Yeah.

0:55:00.2 Jim Lovelady: Amen.

0:55:00.3 Irwyn Ince: Amen.

0:55:01.7 Jim Lovelady: Well, thank you my friend.

0:55:01.8 Irwyn Ince: My pleasure. It’s good to be with you, brother.

[music]

0:55:12.7 Jim Lovelady: I thought it was fascinating that I asked Irwyn to talk about issues of race and racism and he took me to a conversation about our truest identity as image bearers of the triune God and how we are meant to participate in that beautiful community of mutual love distinct yet inseparable Father, Son and Holy Spirit one God one beautiful community. So if you found this conversation convicting or provocative I can’t encourage you enough to go pick up this book A Beautiful Community and underline it, write in its margins journal in the blank pages. It is so good. Irwyn also has a new book that just came out a few months ago called 𝘏𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘈𝘪𝘯’𝘵 𝘢 𝘏𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘭𝘦. And this is another one that will be hard for you to put down, especially as you navigate the insanity of our world right now. How can you have hope in the midst of all this chaos? This book is for cynics and people who are deathly afraid of being duped. That’s why I got it and you should too. Link’s in the show notes and as always please share this episode, go to YouTube and leave a comment, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, email me with your thoughts at podcast@serge.org and let’s keep this conversation going. But I want to end with this question, the question that I asked at the beginning of the episode, is the gospel big enough for conversations about race and racism? And now I must admit I sat on this episode for a bit because in my own heart I wasn’t sure the gospel was big enough for me to broadcast an episode on race and racism. But I have a suspicion that maybe just maybe it is big enough and of course there is this hope that that it is and then as soon as I look around at the tumultuous waters of our culture’s expectations and my own shame. I start to sink and Jesus has to rescue me. And in the story of Mark 8 Jesus touched the blind man so that he saw people, people who are the image of God, but to this blind man, they look like trees walking around, so Jesus had to touch him again, and he finally saw them for who they really are. When you look at someone, do you see them for who they really are? Or is your vision distorted by your prejudices, your misperceptions, your subtle or not so subtle racist projections. And are you too afraid to even let the Lord search you in this way? I learned a lot in this episode. I need to see my stuff more clearly. I need the gospel clarity to see other people the way God sees them. If I do or say something racist can Jesus cover that shame even as someone has to say a hard thing to me in response, and I’ve had some wonderfully generous and patient friends call me out and admonish me. They themselves being free enough in the gospel to confront me with gentleness and humility. And I go back to Jesus and he helps me to see a little more clearly. The gospel invites you to a boldness and vulnerability because you are not your own, you belong to Jesus you are seen you are known and you are loved. And you can turn from gazing at your self-concern and begin to image God in the way that you interact with others so that others feel known and loved. So as you go into the world my prayer for you is that Jesus would help you see other image bearers the way he sees them and that you would continue to ask for greater clarity, as you participate in what the Lord is making into a beautiful community. And as you go receive the Lord’s blessing, may the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you turn his bright eyes to you and give you his peace. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God life everlasting. Amen.

[music]

---