Bold Evangelism for the Boldly Loved

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His kingdom.

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0:00:22.2 Jim: Hello beloved. Welcome to Grace at the Fray. I want you to know that I am so grateful to you that you would join us as we explore how God’s grace fuels mission and how mission drives us back to God’s grace. It’s such a delight to read your comments and to hear how this podcast has had an impact on your life. You should know that I read all the comments and I’m so thankful for you and encouraged by you and your stories. So leave a comment and leave a rating on your podcast platform and hit the subscribe button on YouTube and give us a thumbs up there as well. Alright, so let’s get back to the basics. Let’s do some evangelism 101. Don’t give me that face and don’t skip to the next podcast. It’s going to be fun. It’s going to be fun. Actually, I am curious. How did your body react when I said that we’re going to talk about evangelism? Were you excited or did your body give a twinge of shame and give a discouraged sigh? I feel you. I grew up in the old school evangelical culture filled with evangelism, Sunday school classes and Tuesday night visitation and Wednesday night Bible studies and Saturday mission trip training seminars and college spring break evangelism courses. And while I love the techniques and strategies I’ve learned over the years for how to share my faith, I’ve realized the evangelism training is a lot easier than the evangelism doing. Especially when I dutifully accomplish my checklist but lack the actual heart motivation to share my faith. Well, today I want to talk about evangelism as a natural outflowing of the work of transformation that God does in our own lives on a moment by moment, day by day basis that makes it where we can’t help but talk about what Jesus has done. This gospel dynamic is actually how Serge got its start. Serge was started by a burned out church planter named Jack Miller who had a remarkable encounter with God where he realized just how much God loves Him and it transformed him into a bold and passionate evangelist. And I mean bold. There are some wild stories. Well, my guest today is someone with a similar story. Samuel Kassing is a church planter in Columbia, Missouri. He was a burned out ministry leader who went through Serge’s Mentored Sonship program and had a transforming realization of God’s love for him. And that empowers him to bold and passionate evangelism, to love his city, his friends, and his neighbors who don’t yet know Jesus. I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation because Samuel’s passion for evangelism is contagious. And I want you too, to become passionate about sharing your faith. Bold and courageous. Not dutiful, fearful, or guilt ridden. You know, there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So my prayer is that this conversation will be transforming for you as you discover that the extravagant love of God enables you to share your faith with boldness and love.

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0:03:36.2 Jim Lovelady: Samuel, welcome to Grace at the Fray.

0:03:39.8 Samuel Kassing: Thanks for having me. 

0:03:41.2 Jim Lovelady: We’ve been friends for a long time, but moments ago is when I actually met you in three dimensions. So here we’re out. We were just talking about technology. And that’s just one weird example of how… We’ve lived a lot of life together because you went through the Sonship program, and I got to take you through that. And then a minute ago, I met you in three dimensions. It’s crazy.

0:04:09.3 Samuel Kassing: I know. It’s not a 1 inch by 1 inch little square on a screen. You know what I mean? No longer. 

0:04:14.3 Jim Lovelady: You are a real person. I knew it. I knew it this whole time, I knew you were real. You’re planting a church in the area, and I’d love to hear that, and I’d love to hear how you came to that. I’d love to hear some of how the Sonship curriculum and that course was a part of that. And I’d love to hear your heart behind planting a church, especially with younger generations. You’ve been on staff with Cru for years, and I have a lot of questions about what it looks like, what it has looked like, and you have a lot of experience in that area. I’m going to set you loose. Ready, set, go. 

0:05:00.0 Samuel Kassing: Ready, set, go. Okay. Well, man where… You stack, like four questions. So that’s…

0:05:07.7 Jim Lovelady: I know. Start wherever you…

0:05:09.6 Samuel Kassing: I’ll start with… I won’t start that far back, but a heart for planting and where we’re at with the next generation. So we’re in Columbia, Missouri, which is if you think of a five on a die, it’s that middle dot in the state of Missouri. And the four corners send young people to be educated there. University of Missouri’s there, Mizzou it’s the big flagship research institution in the state. And the median age of Columbia is something like 28 years old. So it’s super young. All these young professionals, recent college grads. And you come there and we’re finally starting to have a life of our own in Columbia where it’s not just a college town. You have the three hospitals, you have equipment share. All these young businesses are coming in, they’re headquartering there and it’s drawing all these young working professionals. And I work for Cru. I still work for Cru. I’m on staff with Cru City now, a branch of Cru called Cru Church Movements. And I am planting in the PCA. And so we are establishing… Essentially I’m on loan to the PCA for free to be an evangelist and missionary to this college town. Working with these young adults though. I’ve just seen over and over again the need for the gospel to reach these people and someone who will speak to them in a way that they understand because so much of what’s happening in their lives is mediated through a screen. And they’ve never had meaningful friendships. They wouldn’t have someone who they trust tell them about Jesus. Someone where there’s a deep trust and that’s the piece there is, you got to be present in their life, which is difficult because they’re so transient and whatnot. But really that was the burden of stepping into church planting. And a good friend of mine were co-planting together and that was probably the other piece where he was like, “Samuel, we should give this a go. We should try and co-plant this church and reach these young adults.” And I was like, “Okay, I don’t know, that’s kinda scary.” We’re leaving the field of campus ministry, which was known after 15 years. It’s like, “What if this failed?” all those types of insecurities surfaced. But that was really me stepping in, embracing a call. And there’s all these older guys in my life who’ve been pushing me and pushing me and goading me for the past half decade of like, “You should do this. You should consider, why not?” And finally saying, “Okay, Lord, I think you’re calling us to this.” My wife and I were like, “Yeah, we can do this.” Let’s by faith pursue planting a church, seeing a church evangelized into existence in a small midwest college town and see if it can come about. So that’s the heart and the burden.

0:08:35.0 Jim Lovelady: When I first met you. I’ll never forget that first Sonship appointment where…

0:08:40.7 Samuel Kassing: It was a dark time. 

0:08:44.7 Jim Lovelady: It was a dark time.

0:08:44.8 Samuel Kassing: It was not a good season of life.

0:08:47.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, exactly. 

0:08:48.4 Samuel Kassing: It was a really hard season. Yeah.

0:08:50.6 Jim Lovelady: Walk me through what… Because what you just said right there of how, the Lord is calling me to plant a church at the very beginning of our… 

0:09:03.2 Samuel Kassing: Oh, no. That was not where I would have been. Not a chance. Yeah. That’s probably the second hardest season of ministry that I had ever experienced, is when we… I was in my last semester of seminary trying to finish my thesis, and I had some relational turmoil in my life. My wife had just ramped up because she needed to graduate from her seminary program. Then I had four HR cases in a row that I was on and trying to work through those, and I was exhausted. I was just spiritually depleted. It was one of those moments of, I was literally… I can’t remember… I was looking at postal jobs. I’m going to go be a postal worker. I was like, “Oh, they make this much. This is their benefits. These are the zip codes I gotta memorize.” I could do this. No. It’s like I’ll just be putting mail in a box.

0:10:08.5 Jim Lovelady: I have looked at post office jobs. I did. 

0:10:13.2 Samuel Kassing: It would be my go to. I could just put in…

0:10:16.7 Jim Lovelady: Just start walking. 

0:10:17.6 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. You just walk. Earbuds, you know what I mean? You’re listening to music. Whatever you want. Nobody argues with you. 

0:10:23.8 Jim Lovelady: What are the jobs that pastors who are in burnout look at. Well, a lot of my friends who’ve left the ministry go into finance or something that I’m like, “Wow, look at how much money you’re making.” That’s awesome. 

0:10:42.7 Samuel Kassing: Yes. Yeah, that’s where I was at. And it was just a gutting season. Experienced a lot of loss, a lot of pain. And that’s where Sonship came in. And I think we were the first beta test.

0:10:58.1 Jim Lovelady: You were. Yeah.

0:11:00.1 Samuel Kassing: Because Robert… 

0:11:02.1 Jim Lovelady: Robert Kim. 

0:11:02.6 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. He just linked up Serge and the Sonship with the church planting track. 

0:11:08.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Because he oversees church planting here at Covenant, and he’s on the board of directors at Serge. And so he’s like, “Hey, let’s just do this thing where seminary students who are on the church planting track have to go through the Sonship curriculum.” It’s been wonderful. I love getting to sit down with these young pastors and they’re… Yeah, most of the time it’s couples. And just getting to walk with them, and it’s just fantastic. I love that he started that. 

0:11:39.4 Samuel Kassing: Well. And so he sent out this email. He’s like, “Hey, we only have a limited number slots. Would anybody be interested?” And I was like, “Man, I am desperate. I am just getting my face kicked in right now spiritually, and I just need somewhere to go with this, think about this stuff, wrestle with that.” And that’s where that Sonship stuff was a lifeline for me, because it was resitting in those gospel truths, those promises.

0:12:09.3 Jim Lovelady: What were some of the things that clicked for you?

 0:12:11.2 Samuel Kassing: Freshly God loves me. You know that intellectually. But there’s those waves. And I was in this season of, I know there’s a sun out there, but there’s a lot of clouds, and I can’t see it. I’m not feeling the warmth. And it was like sitting back in that Sonship, being able to wrestle with seeing my own… Not trying to manage all the things that were happening, but what is mine to own in this?

0:12:40.9 Jim Lovelady: What is your what? 

0:12:41.7 Samuel Kassing: My stuff to own in it. What is my… Where’s my sin at? Where’s my shortcomings? What are the pieces where it’s like, “No, God’s trying to speak to me.” I don’t need to try and fix things or control these things or it’s okay if I fail.

0:12:57.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, all of those things. That list of stuff that was driving you insane was a catalyst for the Lord to do work in your heart.

0:13:07.3 Samuel Kassing: Yes. And then tied to that, you’re going through some of the homework. I remember vividly. This was one of those things that really come home to me is we were having that conversation about prayer, and I was like, “Man, I really think I largely live a prayerless life at times.” I can float from week to week and in those really hard seasons, month to month, and not pray, which is not good. You’re just walking… It’s sad to say that, I’m not proud of that. But it is one of those things where it’s like, it’s just a religious game. I’ve done ministry, I’ve done these rhythms, and I can just operate. And we were talking about that on the homework, and you said something that really, I mean it really came home to me. You’re like, “Describe to me your prayer life.” And I was like, I started talking about how I wasn’t there, and then my self talk and the way I think about things. And then you’re like, “Samuel, I actually think you pray a lot.” And I was like, “What?” You’re like, “Yeah, you just pray to yourself.” and I was like, “That’s so true. That is it.” when I’m angry, I’m lamenting to myself and I’m trying to think about how I want to control this. And it becomes inward focus. All of those things. And it was like, “What if I were to turn those things out and actually begin to take them to the Lord?” Because I am His son, and He wants to hear those things. He wants to hear every aspect of the things I was walking through. The pain, the anger, the sadness, the grief, and to take my fatigue to Him. And it was really in that season where I just started actually doing that and practicing it and walking through it and saying, “Okay, what does it look like to trust the Lord freshly with these things and to see my joy really restored through these promises, not through my own strength, not through my performance.” And it would be okay if I failed. And really, that’s where it’s like, okay, it is, because I’m walking with Him. He’s with me. And even if this all blows up, it’s okay. He has me and I can do that. That wasn’t the story of my whole life. Like I’m a performance junkie, I’m an addict when it comes to… I have a very high standard. And you know the type A, the J. This is my wiring… And yet to see the gospel come into that and really push against it. And the Lord’s love for me really actually be felt again. That’s where Sonship met me and really gave me peace to make some big decisions down the line here. In the next year after Sonship was like, “What if I did step away from something I’ve known for a long time.” something that I was good at. Something that I actually experienced a lot of joy in a place I love, like the campus ministry. And I stepped into a different lane and I said, “Lord, in this next season of life, what would it look like to follow you freshly.” and say, “What does it look like to begin to trust God in new ways.” That was that route. But it was not like, “You know what? I graduated from seminary. We’re going to plan a church.” It was like, “I need a breath.” I’m in a season where it’s like, I don’t think anybody would want me as their pastor right now. 

0:17:00.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And to face that reality.

0:17:01.9 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. Also just I didn’t have the stamina or the spiritual vitality to actually be someone’s pastor in that season, not… I wasn’t there. I was beat down. And it was like, “Okay.” But taking that season and now it’s two years, as we really begin with the last two years has really been this… Really laying a foundation again freshly of this is what it could look like to really minister from a place of… From the promises of God in faith let’s step out, let’s see where this goes and it could fail. That’s been one of the things. It’s church planning, so you’re raising funds and you’re taking ordination exams, and you’re talking to people, and they’re… A lot of them are looking for certainty. And they’re like, “I want to know that this is going to succeed.” And I’m sitting there thinking, “I don’t know if it will.” I can’t transfer people from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light.

0:18:07.6 Jim Lovelady: It’s above your pay grade. 

0:18:09.7 Samuel Kassing: Yes. If we’re not just going to do the whole sheep reallocation where it’s like, “I’ll take 10 from this church in town and 10 from this.” But if we’re actually going to try to see this church evangelized into existence. 

0:18:21.3 Jim Lovelady: I feel like it’s the normal thing for the journey to go through these valleys where we’re realizing how dependent on ourselves we are, and then for the Lord to go, “Hey, are you ready to let me. Are you weak enough to be used by God now?” Where we’re cultivating a posture of, I’m strong enough to be used by God. I’m intellectual enough. Now I’m ready. And the Lord goes, “Well, but this one other thing. You lack one thing. Give away all of that stuff.” You’re too rich. You’re the rich young ruler. You are rich in seminary education, ministry, life and all of those things. Are you willing to get rid of all that stuff? 

0:19:08.9 Samuel Kassing: You don’t want to do that. No one wants to do that. Especially like we’re planting this college town. It’s very educated, it’s white collar, it’s professional. Everyone wants to project that they have life together.

0:19:25.5 Jim Lovelady: Got it all together.

0:19:26.6 Samuel Kassing: If you show up and you’re a mess, that’s not acceptable. That is the the vibe of CoMo. And that’s Columbia, Missouri it’s just… Yeah. CoMo. It’s Columbia… It’s a high achieving place. And that just seeps into you. You don’t realize it, but it’s shaping you, it’s forming you. And it’s not the Kingdom, though. That’s not how the Kingdom works. 

0:20:00.0 Jim Lovelady: It slowly chokes you out, so you can’t breathe in grace anymore. 

0:20:05.1 Samuel Kassing: Yes. And you end up dry and that’s where I was at. And now I’m thankfully in God’s kindness in a very different place. And we’re entering in this season and I’m like, “this is… ” It’s crazy. It’s one of those things where I’m like, “Are we really doing this?” I’ve had that thought a number of times. I look at my wife, I’m like, “Are we really going to do this?” and it’s like, “Yeah, yes. This is what God’s calling us to. We’re following Him.” and the Lord has met us along the way where it’s just like, he just keeps opening doors and we keep having all these spiritual conversations with people. And we’re seeing my neighbors that we’ve been in years long spiritual conversations with them just the ongoing dialogue. And one of my neighbors is across the street from me. He’s a smart guy, works at the university and he’s Buddhist, but he’s really curious about Christianity. And we’ve been having a number of conversations. He’s had a few health scares in his life, really serious ones. An older gentlemen, kids are out of the house. But he wants to come to the church plant. We’re talking about it and he’s, “Yeah, I want to come.” And he’s curious. And we’ve been having these sometime conversations where it’s, “Hey, sometime I’d like to hear about this.” And you go, you grab a beer or at the next mailbox meeting, and you’re talking about it, and it’s someone who you would be like, “Oh, really far from Jesus.” But here he is. He’s asking me questions. He’ll call me across the street to his front yard about a spiritual question he’s been thinking about. And he’s not a believer. To my understanding he’s never been in church in his life. But he’s curious because he wants to make meaning of this world. He knows there’s something else out there, and it’s Jesus. The risen Lord is what he’s looking for and that person, and man it’s those little things where it’s you come walking in the front door I’m, “Wow. I think he’s really serious about being a part of our core group. And he doesn’t know Jesus.” So it’s let’s see where this goes. That’s the type of things we’re stepping into and saying, “How could the Lord use this? Who would he bring into His Kingdom through this endeavor?”

0:22:37.6 Jim Lovelady: One of the things that I’ve always liked about you is how, if it’s the spiritual gift of evangelism or whatever, but just how you’re constantly going, “Hey, there is a hope. And I think you’re great. And I want you to meet this person named Jesus, who’s a real person. It’s not a philosophy. It’s not an ideology. There’s a person here that I have met and this person has rescued me, is rescuing me. Currently rescuing me. Let me talk to you about… If you want to talk about how Jesus is rescuing me, let me tell you what it’s been like and then how I think that He’s going to be rescuing us as we try this new thing.” And I love how you’re on the lookout.

0:23:23.0 Samuel Kassing: It’s one of those things where it’s like, how can you… Jesus found us like that. I was that guy in college, who was far from Jesus, and in God’s providence, I accidentally ran into somebody who shared the gospel with me. I just can’t help but think the Lord’s not a reluctant evangelist. He actually wants to save people. You don’t have to twist his arm. 

0:23:47.9 Jim Lovelady: It is the Lord’s desire that I’ll be saved. 

0:23:50.8 Samuel Kassing: Yes. He wants that. That’s where it’s you just get to participate. Everyone’s on a spiritual journey. We all know that. And God is working in their life and he wants to use us. He wants to use us. And that’s the thing where it’s so true, but it’s… You get the visual lethargy where it’s the first time you drive to work, it’s like you’re seeing it all the new things, you’re checking the maps, you’re making sure you get… But the 200th time you drive to work you don’t remember anything. 

0:24:24.7 Jim Lovelady: You wake up and you’re there.

0:24:26.0 Samuel Kassing: And you’re there and it’s a little bit scary because you’ve been driving a car at 50 miles an hour but you don’t remember how you got there. Well, that’s how we get with our neighbors. There’s all these people and the Lord has placed them in our lives and we get visual lethargy with them. But he put those people there for a reason.

0:24:43.4 Jim Lovelady: How do you keep yourself fresh? How do they not become white noise in the background? 

0:24:47.6 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. Having little children is helpful because every person’s a new person like for my daughters, and when they’re playing in the front yard, they’re saying hi to everybody. And being able to see them from their eyes and helping them see that is really significant. I think too, it’s just you’re having time with people. The more I sit down with people, those sometime conversations, or I’m like, “Hey, sometime I’d like to hear about this.” people, they’ll take you up on that. You say, “Hey, sometime I’d love to grab a beer and hear more about your spiritual story.” They’ll take you up on it. And then when you go and sit down with them, they’re actually really interesting. People are really fascinated. 

0:25:35.4 Jim Lovelady: Every single person has a story and that story is really fascinating. 

0:25:39.2 Samuel Kassing: Yes. And you start to get in, you’re like, “Tell me more.” And it’s really easy actually, because then it’s like they’re starved. They’re starved for real connection. And they’re so isolated. And where we’re at, we’re in the suburbs, it’s plain. It’s garage door up, garage door down. Everyone’s really self sufficient. If you’re buying into these suburbs, you know what I mean? You probably have a college degree, you probably have this, that and the other. You’re probably mid level management. Your life is “together” but on the inside everyone’s… You see the dysfunction. It’s there. And even though they drive the nice truck and they have the degree and they… It looks all together, it’s not really. 

0:26:23.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. When you look at suicide rates and you look at domestic abuse stuff. What’s happening behind those doors? 

0:26:31.2 Samuel Kassing: The depths of despair and all of those things, you could go on and on and on. It’s like when you’re watching the public schools really struggle in our area with violence. When you’re seeing, that’s when you’re like, “Ooh, there’s something underneath here. It looks real good, but there’s a rot on the inside.” And those would probably be the two that I’ve experienced lately, externally. And then the third is just actually praying for it. Not to be overly pious, but asking the Lord… It’s fresh for us. You feel the weight of it. It’s like, “Oh, if we don’t see people come to know Jesus, then this church is never planted or established.” No. We actually have to trust God. We can’t just run out the liturgy week after week.

0:27:22.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. This is not a machine. This is dynamic. This is alive. And so why don’t we talk to the Lord about all of these things? 

0:27:31.5 Samuel Kassing: Yes. You have to talk to Him. He’s the one who has to save people. And if He doesn’t, well, then you don’t have a job. Not to put it too crassly there, but you were called to this. And if he’s calling us to plant this church, then we got to see lost people come to know Jesus. If we don’t see that happen, then we haven’t actually planted a church. We haven’t fulfilled the call that the Lord is actually calling us to. And part of that, too, is if the Lord’s calling us to this, He’s going to provide. 

0:28:03.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And part of the faith journey is trusting in His provision in all of those areas. 

0:28:10.0 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. And then you just got to say, “Okay, well, He planted me here.” And the Lord never mismanages our time. He doesn’t mismanage the places that He sends us and has us, which means He has me in these people’s lives for a reason. And that’s where it’s like, “Okay, well, how can I be present? How can I offer them my presence?” And really Just sitting down with them and getting to know them. I want to care for them. I want to love them. I want them to experience the hope and the joy that I have. And that means they got to know the person I know, and that’s Jesus. And so that’s that give and take. If I were to walk you around my house right now just catty corner to me, right to the southwest. I have a single woman there, recent divorcee. She’s wonderful, but walking through a really heavy situation. She just broke down and cried on me at the mailbox the other day. Right straight across the street next to her I have two… they were in the church a long time ago, and they don’t do organized religion anymore. And they’re spiritual, but not religious, a vague spirituality. Next to them is my buddy I was talking about who’s a Buddhist. And across the street, straight north of me are my Mormon neighbors. Behind me are two sets of grad students. One has a background, but it’s no longer practicing. The others are nominal Roman Catholics. Right next to them is a couple that’s deconstructing because they walk through a pastoral abuse situation, and they are actually on staff at a church. And then straight south of me are my Muslim neighbors. And on the weekends, you can hear that call to prayer. And those are just the houses touching me. Okay. This isn’t like the rest of the neighbors on my little street. And I just think all of those people are on a spiritual journey and God is at work and all of their lives. And I know that because I’m their neighbor. How does that work in my life and I’m in relationship with them.

0:30:25.4 Jim Lovelady: And you’re awake to what the Lord wants to be doing just in that area. Because this is what’s interesting. It’s because you went through a hard time, and life just went [blown up sound] in many ways. But then the Lord goes, “All right, let’s fill you up. Let’s fill you up. Let me give you a fresh dose of grace. So that you can see just how wonderfully you are loved beyond your imagination.” And it’s almost like this deflated… You become inflated again filled with grace. And you’re oozing grace. And then that enables you to look around and move. That’s what we talk about, the propulsion of grace, where grace doesn’t just give you the warm and fuzzies, it’s, oh, no, now you can see. Look around you, look around you. 

0:31:26.2 Samuel Kassing: And it moves you out. And that’s it. But it’s really ordinary. It’s not like I’ve done anything. I just said, “Hi.” Like, “Hi, my name is Samuel.” anyone can do that. That’s not rocket science or some really strong strategy or anything like that. No, it’s just offering people that presence. And they’re so lonely. They’re so isolated and then there’s someone who genuinely just wants to listen to them. They want to talk. And you say, “Hey, sometime I’d love to grab a beer.” And then you actually follow up with it. Guess what? They’ll go grab a beer with you. 

0:32:07.9 Jim Lovelady: They’ll do it. Yeah. 

0:32:09.3 Samuel Kassing: And you get to drink a good beverage, and you get to hear an interesting story about their life. And then it deepens, and then it begins to compound because it’s like, now all my neighbors, we have shared life together, where it’s like the stories start to interweave. And then it’s a confluence of three people at the front of my driveway, and we’re all asking about each other’s weeks, and we’re actually connecting. And then the kids are playing in the front yard, and they start drawing over neighborhood kids. And then it’s… It actually feels like a neighborhood.

0:32:45.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we here at the headquarters in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesday and Friday mornings to pray, and this week we’re praying for our teams and in Uganda and the DRC. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks, give them joy in their work in your Kingdom, and the pleasure of your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children, with the people that they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved to protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness. Restore to them the joy of your salvation and let your Kingdom come and your will be done in these places, just as it is in heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now back to the conversation. 

0:33:49.0 Jim Lovelady: And it’s the cycle. Because as soon as you start to do life with those folks, your life brings on some of the messiness of their life, and they are needy. And there are going to be days when you’re like, “Hey, I don’t have time for this.” And the Spirit goes, “But we’re going to make time for this.” And you’re brought back face to face with your own selfishness and your own weakness and inability and desperation once again. And so going outward drives you back to the cross. And now I need grace more than I thought, because I don’t want to deal with my neighbor who’s doing this thing and just over and over again, the cycle. 

0.34.35.0 Sam Kassing: And sometimes I’m the needy neighbor. It’s not just them. It’s like my life starts bleeding in it just… 

0:34:41.5 Jim Lovelady: That’s good. 

0:34:42.5 Samuel Kassing: So my wife, she ordered a chip drop. Okay. 

0:34:47.7 Jim Lovelady: A what?

0:34:48.2 Samuel Kassing: Yeah, a chip… So essentially, they’re an arborist instead of hauling all the chips after they cut down a tree.

0:34:54.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh, wood chips… 

0:34:55.3 Samuel Kassing: Yeah, wood chips. They’ll drop them for free in your front yard. But you don’t know when it’s coming, and you don’t know how big it is. 

0:35:03.3 Jim Lovelady: Okay. That’s like the deal you get free mulch sometime. 

0:35:07.0 Samuel Kassing: Yeah, at some point. Okay. And it’s… 

0:35:09.1 Jim Lovelady: And you never know how much. 

0:35:09.9 Samuel Kassing: You never know how much. And this semi comes up my street and just drops in 20 foot by 6 foot pile of mulch. I don’t even have a wheelbarrow. And I’m looking at this and I’m looking like, “What are we going to do? I can’t get the car out of the garage.” Like, this is like, whatever… We’re toast. 

0:35:34.1 Jim Lovelady: You trapped us.

 0:35:35.0 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. I was like, “You said you were getting mulch. This is not quite what I thought.” And so I’m sitting out there, but my neighbors, all they’re watching me stare at this big pile and sure enough within an hour, I had about six or seven of my neighbors with three different wheelbarrows all theirs. And they’re helping me move this mulch.

 0:35:58.8 Jim Lovelady: Oh, that’s awesome.

0:36:00.7 Samuel Kassing: Into the play-scape in the backyard. And we’re talking, and they’re helping me, but I was the needy one. And my neighbors are… Just because we have a friendship, they showed up. And that’s the type of reciprocity that starts to happen. Your life has become enmeshed in a good way. And that’s where it’s like, the Lord is opening doors then. Then it’s just having the courage to say, “Hey, I’d be curious about this. What do you think?” And then to genuinely listen to them and I think that’s where it’s been navigating that journey, which is very different than campus ministry, you know what I mean? Where it’s like so fast paced. It’s just a new group of students every four years, but with the neighbors, it’s much slower. 

0:36:50.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You’re in it for a long haul. 

0:36:52.1 Samuel Kassing: It’s the long haul and it’s feeling those things out and what’s next for… You know what I mean? In this conversation and all of those things. 

0:37:05.0 Jim Lovelady: I love that. That’s a lot of fun. 

0:37:06.6 Samuel Kassing: That’s been great. 

0:37:07.8 Jim Lovelady: It does bring me to the other question that I had for you, which was, student ministry, mobilizing the next generation for mission. Mobilizing the next generation for Kingdom ministry. Okay. Talk to me about what does it look like to mobilize the younger generation for Kingdom ministry.

0:37:32.6 Samuel Kassing: That’s a huge, huge conversation there. Well, we’re still involved in it. And we’re in Columbia, Missouri. You can’t throw a rock at a student. Okay. You know what I mean? You’re going to have to engage the youth and the next generation. And in that, it’s a very different feel than when I started 15 years ago. When I started in the campus ministry 15 years ago, maybe we’d have one student who would have anxiety. You have a ministry, 200 students, maybe one. It’d be the student who experienced anxiety and you would know about it, you care for them. Here we are 15 years later, and it’s, “No, no, no.” The question is no longer… When I sit down with the student for the first time, it’s not like, “Do you struggle with anxiety?” It’s like, “How bad is your struggle with anxiety?” And the rapid shift in the last decade and a half. The way I liken it to people it’s like basketball where… If you’d have watched in the ’90s, you know, Phil Jackson, he’s running the triangle offense and… You know what I mean? 

0:38:49.8 Jim Lovelady: No.

0:38:50.6 Samuel Kassing: Okay. A really good basketball, you just pound the ball into the post with a really tall guy and he gets you two points over and over again. This is basketball in the ’90s. I’m vastly oversimplifying. But if you watch basketball today, it’s all about a corner three. And how many threes can you get up? Because if I shoot this many threes at this percentage and you shoot… 

0:39:14.2 Jim Lovelady: You’re likely to hit those. 

0:39:14.7 Samuel Kassing: I’m going to win. Even if you shoot a higher percentage at two points, a lower percentage threes actually means I win. And the game has shifted. That’s what it’s like today. It’s still basketball. You have to take the orange ball, put it through the orange hoop more times than this team. That is how you win. You still have to take the gospel and give it to the college student or the youth. You have to disciple them and ground them in the faith. It’s still that, but you can’t do it by pounding the ball into the post anymore. You’ll spiritually get run out of the gym. And that’s that pivot, that shift, where it’s like really reaching them in new and fresh ways with the old news and beginning to engage them with it and you gotta start way farther back. They aren’t coming in any longer with 30 years or 20 years of Sunday school under their belt. That’s not where they land on the university campus. That’s not where they’re landing at 30 when they have their first kid. They don’t have that. They don’t even have the memory of Jesus. Let alone actually fresh firsthand knowledge of Jesus. That’s not…

0:40:34.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. The amount of unchurched people nowadays in our culture is… You have to just understand when I say Noah’s Ark, someone’s going to go, “What?” 

0:40:45.3 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. They aren’t going to understand that. 

0:40:47.0 Jim Lovelady: Which I think is an opportunity because we can go. “Hey, remember how you grew up with thinking that Noah’s Ark was a sweet baby story? It’s actually more of a grown up story than we realize.” 

0:41:01.8 Samuel Kassing: Yes, absolutely. They’re a blank slate in a lot of ways. You actually get to start with the gospel basics without all the preconceived notions. You don’t have to do the re-ministry  of organizing a messy church background. There is no church background. But they think very differently and they experience the world very differently. There are so many stories in popping my head. 

0:41:28.5 Jim Lovelady: Tell me one. 

0:41:31.7 Samuel Kassing: Okay. This was a few weeks ago. I have a Bible study and a partner with a good friend of mine. She’s on staff at the historically black church in town. And so I come in and I help facilitate this Bible study with her. So it’s me and around 30 to 40 students on a Tuesday night. It’s a blast. Okay. I just get to show up and I get to teach the Bible, answer young people’s questions. But I did… We pulled them on like tough questions they want us to answer. And there’s a number of questions in there and a lot of them were stock questions that you would get with any young person. You know what I mean? Like how do I date well or how do I do this well or whatever. But one of the ones that kept coming up is how do I actually read the Bible and know that I’m interpreting it correctly? Kept coming up and so I said, “All right, I’ll take that question and we’ll open the series here.” That way they can see how we’re approaching all these other tough questions. And I kick open the seminar with what has been your experience studying the Bibles? And they start popping off and just answering the question. But we’re a few people in. One of the students raises their hand and it’s like… I’ve actually, it’s gotten a lot easier for me lately. And like, “Oh, what’s going on?” The student, they say, “Well I read the passage and then I cut paste it, I put it into ChatGPT and I have ChatGPT interpret it for me and it makes it so much easier to understand.” And I was like, “Wow, that’s interesting.” And it’s like other experiences. And student follows that student and the next student says, “I do something similar. I read the passage and then I put the verse references in my TikTok and I see if there’s any reels that will come up. That will help me understand the passage.” And I was like, “Oh, interesting more thoughts.” 

0:43:33.1 Jim Lovelady: I did both of those things, by the way. 

0:43:37.1 Samuel Kassing: It’s like this is like their go to, is to them. And it’s like I would have never… That wouldn’t have been on my radar when I was 19 years old. 

0:43:48.7 Jim Lovelady: Oh absolutely. 

0:43:50.0 Samuel Kassing: I would have gone to an older person in my church or something like that. I would have found the older crew staff member and be like, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this, can you help me? Are there resources?” But they’ve lived in a world where you hack and you find a way and this gig economy, you piece it together and it’s all online mediated. For them going to a big AI search engine.

0:44:19.0 Jim Lovelady: It’s a no brainer. 

0:44:22.1 Samuel Kassing: That’s a no brainer for them. AI is a great tool but they have no clue that the right type of questions they should be feeding it to get a meaningful response they can trust or how to vet the… That’s where they’re at. They really don’t have any meaningful trust filled relationships with the different generations. And so it’s like as we recruit them, you’re starting in this place where it’s, man, they’re a lot further back. They may be able to affirm our statement of faith, they can read through it, but they don’t actually know how to explicate, actually unpack it. The biblical literacy, it’s not there. And the tough part about that is like you can’t microwave maturity. You can’t get them there fast. And so it takes longer. If you’re going to recruit… In our circles we’ve been talking about is, like you gotta start with that freshman in high school. You can’t just start recruiting the junior or senior in college. It’s the eight year track. The runway is not long enough to get that plane off the ground and into vocational ministry. They don’t have the engine parts to get that plane flying. And even if you can’t get them off the ground, they’re going to burn out mid flight a few years in because… 

0:45:50.7 Jim Lovelady: If you don’t prep them well. 

0:45:52.2 Samuel Kassing: They just don’t have the spiritual formation. They don’t have the 20 years of loving, connected relationships where people are washing them with the gospel, reminding them of the gospel over and over again that many people in our generation did have. We grew up with that. 

0:46:11.2 Jim Lovelady: In light of that, the plane’s still going to be taken off, so what is it going to be looking like? What do you think it’s going to be looking like when we have people who have maybe been a Christian for a couple years and it’s like Christian for a couple years and almost immediately in ministry, what does it look like to be walking with young Christians who are ministry leaders?

0:46:41.0 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. There’s going to have to be a hard pivot from trusting programs to mature students into more of the apprenticeships. You’re going to have to have a more hands on approach. If you’re the senior pastor, you have to be in the intern’s life. You can’t just be preaching on Sunday, that’s not… You have to do to take that 2nd Timothy 2:2. That part of the pastoral epistle is equally a part of our job description. Not just the qualification for elders, but also the work. Both of those things right there. It’s the entrust to faithful men. That’s part of the job. Part of the pastorate is apprenticing the next generation. It’s explicitly a part of the job.

0:47:39.7 Jim Lovelady: It’s right there. 

0:47:40.4 Samuel Kassing: Yeah, it’s not like… I’m not twisting this. This is like it’s in the pastoral epistle. It’s right there. If this isn’t in your job description, then you’re not fulfilling your office. And then what’s followed up quickly after is fulfill the work of an evangelist. Which means as the pastor, the shepherd, the leader there you have to be taking people along in evangelism. They have to see you practicing a lifestyle and cultivating evangelism. And I think that pivot from relying on the programs where it was like, “Okay, this is what we’ll do. We’ll find them at a summer camp, then they’ll do the two year program. Then we’ll send them to seminary, then they’ll become a youth pastor, then we’ll… ” you know what I mean? Then they become an assistant. Then they become… If you’re going to actually recruit people, you’re going to have to start further back. You’re going to have to be hands on or an apprenticing training. And that’s going to require a tailoring. It’s going to be more work. It won’t be as clean or smooth. Each person is going to need a different type of training. But it’s going to have to be experiential. As they learn, as you actually read the Bible and they begin to study the scriptures, they’re going to have to actually be practicing mission. In that putting those two together in a tailored way, that’s what we’re seeing in our circles. 

0:49:10.9 Jim Lovelady: It’s so fascinating. And the question… The last just quickly, what’s your first thought when someone says, “Hey. I’m thinking about planting a church.” 

0:49:20.0 Samuel Kassing: Yeah, well, I want to ask some questions. Okay. Is the gospel strong in your own heart? And do you know what it means to pray? And lastly, do you have a sincere love for the non-Christians Jesus already put in your life? 

0:49:42.2 Jim Lovelady: That’s good. 

0:49:43.6 Samuel Kassing: That’s that thing where it’s like you can’t be planting a church because you’re trying to prove yourself or you have something to achieve. Or you want to make a name for yourself. And are you really sitting in the fact that Jesus loves you? Can you sing Jesus loves you with strength? Do you really believe that? And if you don’t have that, why are you trying to establish history? That’s too big of a disconnect to overcome. And then the prayer is like, okay, if we’re really trying to see churches evangelized into existence, you can’t do it. And these people that… You’re starting so far back, you have such a hard work, it’s going to require the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has to save people. And so it’s if we’re not genuinely praying and asking the Lord to save people, and not just vaguely, broadly, but asking God to save Billy or Joe or the person who’s across the street from me, then it’s like, “Where’s this church going to come from?” The Lord wants to save those people, the people He’s placed in your life. And so it’s are we praying and asking Jesus to save those people? Intersect their life and bring them to salvation. So that prayer piece of do you want to pray? Are you praying? It’s not going to just magically happen? It’s not like that. Yeah. Oh, I’m a church planner, now I begin to pray. It’s like, no. 

0:51:23.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, let’s start with prayer. Let’s see what the Lord does with that.

0:51:26.2 Samuel Kassing: Yeah. And as you wrestle with those things I really hope that you love the lost people that God’s putting in your life. He loves them. Do you? I’m not trying to shame anybody and asking that question, but it’s like, if you want to plant a church, man we gotta reach people. That means the lost people, the people who don’t know Christ. And it’s like, do you love them? Do you see them? Do you want to be with them? And if someone wants to plant a church, it’s like, they got to go do that. And I just think those would be the three things that I’d really dial in on and be like… Those are the three things. And who you going to take with you? I really think that’s the team aspect but this next… 

0:52:23.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, who’s going with you?

0:52:25.2 Samuel Kassing: Who’s going with you. 

0:52:26.3 Jim Lovelady: I love that. 

0:52:27.0 Samuel Kassing: You can’t do it alone. I have a dear friend. We’re co-planting together. And that was one of the reasons I was willing to throw my hat in the ring is I’m not doing it solo. And it’s we get to do it together as co-planters and leading together. And that’s where I’d be like, who’s going to go with you? And I think that that with peace, that would barely be the other thing on that. The previous question on like reaching that next generation. They don’t want to go solo. Their whole life has been algorithm and mediated, tailored to where their life is just so small.

0:53:02.4 Jim Lovelady: Hyper individual.

0:53:03.2 Samuel Kassing: It’s hyper individualized. And now we’re putting up this massive spiritual need, this massive spiritual vision that’s crushing. It’s crushing for any individual. But if you say, who’s coming with you? That’s where you can invite them in and say, “You’re not alone from the beginning.” and you can begin to develop those relationships. And if you have the apprenticeship, you can really provide a space for people to come in and taste. Because ministry is actually really enjoyable. I’m glad that I get to do it. 

0:53:37.3 Jim Lovelady: I love that you just said that because when I first met you. 

0:53:41.6 Samuel Kassing: That’s not where I was. 

0:53:45.1 Jim Lovelady: I love it. I love it. 

0:53:46.2 Samuel Kassing: But it really is. It’s like I wouldn’t want to do anything else. It’s amazing that I get to be a pastor for people. It’s a tremendous privilege. And I love 70% of my job. You know what I mean? There’s all the admin that I don’t love. But you know what I mean? Even that is for the service of these people. And that’s the piece where it’s ministry’s really… It’s a joy. And so it’s inviting people into a place of joy. You know what I mean? If we’re not anxious, if we’re in a place of rest, then you’re not asking people to join an anxious org saying, “Hey, join us, join us. We’re going to die if you don’t join us.” that’s not what… No one wants to join that. 

0:54:28.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. People sleep right through that. 

0:54:30.1 Samuel Kassing: Yes. But if you’re at peace and you’re living out of that deep love, I think that’s where it’s like, “Come Join the team, come be a part.” That’s a compelling ask. And if you say, “Hey, we’ll help you along the way, and we have meaningful ways for you to participate in the mission and you’re going to get to see your life continue to be changed by the gospel, and you get to see other people’s lives changed by the gospel.” That’s amazing. 

0:54:57.3 Jim Lovelady: Amen. 

0:54:58.1 Samuel Kassing: There’d be my fourth team. But that’s where I would say come plant churches. The need is huge, especially here in the States and there’s so many lost people. We need more healthy churches. That’s anywhere. And I could go on and on, but I’ll stop. 

0:55:20.6 Jim Lovelady: Amen. That’s so good. Well, thanks for hanging out, man. 

0:55:23.8 Samuel Kassing: Thanks for having me. 

0:55:31.0 Jim Lovelady: Where does your evangelistic boldness come from? What is it that would make you passionate about sharing your faith? And I don’t mean it has to be extroverted, and I definitely don’t mean that it has to be obnoxious. I’m talking about evangelistic boldness that is humble and confident and joyful and wise and free. Where does that boldness come from? I’ll tell you right now, it only comes from a humbled prayerful dependence on Jesus. This conversation with Samuel about prayer and evangelism and the church planting endeavor reminds me of that story in Mark 9 about the boy with the unclean spirit. It’s the one where the boy’s father tells Jesus that he had asked the disciples to cast out the demon, but they failed. And there’s this interesting little interaction with Jesus where the father pleads, “If you are able to cast him out.” And Jesus says, “If you’re able, all things can be done for the one who believes.” And this is where the father says, “I believe. Help me in my unbelief.” It’s one of my favorite passages in the Bible. And of course, Jesus casts out the demon. And later the disciples asked Jesus, “Why couldn’t we do this?” And He says, “This kind can only come out through prayer.” And I love that Jesus never said to the disciples that they couldn’t cast out the demon. He didn’t say, this kind can only come out if I do it. He said, “This kind can only come out through prayer.” And when it comes to evangelism, we so often depend on our own strategies and techniques that we forget to pray to the only one who has the power to actually fix things. We’re praying right? Just like Samuel said. But we’re not praying to Jesus. We’re praying to our abilities, to our techniques, to our own power. The call of evangelism is an invitation to repent, to return to our dependence on Jesus. Now I’m about to recommend to you some resources that will help you grow in passion and boldness for evangelism. But this is a little dangerous because I don’t want these to end up as mere strategies or techniques for evangelism. And they will if they lack prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit that comes from depending on Jesus. Having said that, I want to commend a couple of books to you written by Jack Miller, the founder of Serge. The first is 𝘖𝘶𝘵𝘨𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘐𝘯𝘨𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘯 𝘊𝘩𝘶𝘳𝘤𝘩 This book is a wake up call. It’s like a bucket of water on someone sleeping through their alarm. This book is for anyone who loves their church, but especially for pastors. Pastors, read this book with your elders and your staff and with much prayer. The second is 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘏𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘢 𝘚𝘦𝘳𝘷𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳. This is the collection of Jack Miller’s letters to pastors and congregants and missionaries. And there’s something from the Gospel for everyone in this book. By the way, my guest Samuel today, he loves this book. Links for those are in the show notes, as well as a webinar with guest missionary Bob Phillips. And it’s called “Evangelism for the Terrified”. Check that out. I think that it will be really helpful for you. So take these resources and let them guide you into deeper dependence on Jesus through whatever situation you may find yourself in today. Because regardless of what it is, this kind can only come out through prayer. As you go, may you experience the love of Christ that compels you to love in extraordinary ways. As you walk in humble dependence on the one who saves you. He goes with you before you and behind you, above and below, on your right and on your left. He is with you. So may the Lord bless you and keep you you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you and turn his bright eyes to you and give you his peace. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One God, life everlasting. Amen.

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