A Gospel-Shaped Identity in a Fragmented World

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His kingdom.

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0:00:22.6 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome to another episode of Grace at the Fray. I’m really excited about today’s episode, because it goes after one of the fundamental aspects of living in our modern fragmented individualistic culture. It’s the topic of identity and belonging. In our individualistic culture, we are all forced to contend with this question, who am I? And where do I belong? Did you know that not all cultures struggle with this question? Who am I, and where do I belong? We feel the tug of this question. It’s the theme of virtually every Disney song. It’s embedded in every commercial. And our culture offers a lot of answers to the question of identity and belonging. But they end up empty promises and just, they just add to the noise of our fragmented society, pulling us in every direction until we’re just dizzy with confusion, anxiety, and exhaustion. So, I’m really excited to share this conversation with you. My guest today is Pastor Steve Huber. Steve is a church planter, the director of the Liberti Communion of Churches here in the Philadelphia area, and he’s the pastor of Covenant Church in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. He recently wrote a book for our Gospel Centered Life in the Bible series, and the one that he wrote is a small group study on the Book of Colossians: Becoming Who You Are in Christ. And one of my desires for this podcast is that it would become a resource for you as you navigate life and ministry in God’s church, and outward to a world that is desperate for God’s rule and reign. So, I’ll leave a link for this book in our show notes, along with a number of other resources on the topic of identity and belonging, like a blog post from our resource library at serge.org and a webinar that we put out. I know that you will find these helpful. So, check out the show notes, and while you’re there, leave a rating for this podcast, a like and a subscribe if you’re watching on YouTube, and share this episode with someone. So, Steve came into the studio to talk about his book. And I love how almost every question I gave him as we were talking about his book in the Book of Colossians, I love how almost every question I gave him, he offered a quote from scripture, as we explored how to find our identity in Christ. And add nothing to that other than to practice resting in the fact that you belong to the one who loves you.

0:03:10.4 Jim Lovelady: Steve, welcome to Grace at the Fray.

0:03:12.7 Steve Huber: Hey, man, it’s good to be here.

0:03:15.7 Jim Lovelady: I’m really excited to get to celebrate your new book and just hear what you’ve been up to and see where this conversation goes, because when two pastors get in a room together, hopefully it’s always about Jesus.

0:03:31.2 Steve Huber: Yes. Yeah.

0:03:31.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. So welcome, man.

0:03:31.4 Steve Huber: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Been looking forward to it.

0:03:34.0 Jim Lovelady: So, all right. I’ve got a few quick questions. Just these aren’t random questions, but they are definitely, they hopefully they feel a little random. All right?

0:03:43.0 Steve Huber: Sure.

0:03:43.7 Jim Lovelady: Are you ready?

0:03:44.2 Steve Huber: Yeah. I’m ready.

0:03:44.3 Jim Lovelady: Here we go. On a scale of one to 10 how much of a Swiftie are you?

0:03:50.9 Steve Huber: You know what? 1989, my daughter and I have a not so secret obsession with that album. So my daughter went through a deep Swiftie phase. I embrace that. I also, have you ever heard Ryan Adams covers of those tunes?

0:04:06.4 Jim Lovelady: Yes.

0:04:07.6 Steve Huber: Yeah. It’s amazing. Just release the whole album.

0:04:09.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:04:10.9 Steve Huber: So there you go. I don’t know where that place me. I’ll let you choose the…

0:04:12.0 Jim Lovelady: That’s definitely a number. Definitely.

0:04:14.5 Steve Huber: Yeah. I’ll let you choose the number there. It’s gone lower. My daughter’s not as much as a… My youngest daughter’s not as much of a Swiftie as she was, but those are catchy. She writes catchy tunes.

0:04:23.3 Jim Lovelady: She’s a great writer. Every Swiftie is looking for things like, yeah. You name an album or you, do you have a bracelet on or, is your favorite number 13 or whatever.

0:04:32.2 Steve Huber: Yeah. And also in a million years, I wouldn’t have guessed that was the first question of the podcast, but I like it. I embrace it.

0:04:40.0 Jim Lovelady: All right. Okay. Ready? Here we go. Nike or Adidas.

0:04:43.8 Steve Huber: Adidas.

0:04:45.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:04:45.5 Steve Huber: Yeah.

0:04:46.4 Jim Lovelady: Okay.

0:04:46.5 Steve Huber: All the football/soccer fans around the world for sure. Yeah. I want to buy a pair of the classic Jordan Airs, Air Jordans. My wife says I’m too old and it won’t look right and I can’t rock those.

0:04:57.3 Jim Lovelady: If you could go back in time, would you buy one of those and save it?

0:05:01.2 Steve Huber: I would.

0:05:01.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:05:05.7 Steve Huber: I would. She says that it’s not going to look right and I’m too old to rock those, but, so we’re debating that.

0:05:10.7 Jim Lovelady: Well…

0:05:11.2 Steve Huber: My sister collects. Yeah. She’s a pretty… In that kid phase, in that girl phase where you can buy kids shoes and they’re cheaper, she has an impressive collection of shoes right now in bands.

0:05:27.8 Jim Lovelady: Mine is Chuck Taylor’s.

0:05:29.0 Steve Huber: Yeah. That’s great.

0:05:30.9 Jim Lovelady: I love a good pair of Chuck’s.

0:05:32.2 Steve Huber: Yeah, those are classic.

0:05:33.6 Jim Lovelady: That wasn’t one of the options.

0:05:33.8 Steve Huber: I had a pair of those from my dad, like one of the originals, which is amazing. You could have a grandfather, a father, a son, all wearing the same shoes. Yeah.

0:05:45.9 Jim Lovelady: Generations.

0:05:46.0 Steve Huber: Generations.

0:05:47.7 Jim Lovelady: That’s awesome. All right, ready?

0:05:49.1 Steve Huber: Yep.

0:05:49.9 Jim Lovelady: I have to do this one and I hope you answer it correctly. Beatles or Queen.

0:05:54.2 Steve Huber: Wow. That’s tough. I’d go Beatles.

0:05:56.0 Jim Lovelady: Okay. Thank you.

0:05:56.1 Steve Huber: Yeah.

0:05:56.1 Jim Lovelady: We can continue this conversation.

0:06:00.3 Steve Huber: Okay. Thank you. [laughter] It was going to be a short podcast.

0:06:00.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. What’s your favorite rock band?

0:06:03.2 Steve Huber: Man, I have so many. You know what I’ve dipped back into, I play guitar and…

0:06:11.7 Jim Lovelady: You were in a rock band, weren’t you?

0:06:13.5 Steve Huber: I was in college, yeah, it was a college.

0:06:15.6 Jim Lovelady: I think I know who, there was some people on in that band that are…

0:06:19.3 Steve Huber: Sure. Yeah.

0:06:21.5 Jim Lovelady: I think. Yeah. Okay.

0:06:21.7 Steve Huber: Yeah. But Smashing Pumpkins, that Siamese Dream album.

0:06:26.9 Jim Lovelady: I love that album.

0:06:27.0 Steve Huber: Has some great tunes on it. And I got on board that Smashing Pumpkins’ bus. Yeah. And I was outside Chicago. He’s from that area as well, Billy Corgan. And their first album Gish definitely hooked me. Where did that come out? Like ’90, ’91, something like that.

0:06:46.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Siamese Dream is in my top 20…

0:06:48.8 Steve Huber: That was your entrance. Okay.

0:06:50.0 Jim Lovelady: Of all time.

0:06:51.9 Steve Huber: Okay.

0:06:52.0 Jim Lovelady: Cherub Rock.

0:06:52.4 Steve Huber: Nice.

0:06:53.4 Jim Lovelady: Luna, Soma. Oh man.

0:06:54.5 Steve Huber: Great guitar tones too, their guitarist, his tones are really interesting.

0:06:58.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. NCAA or NFL football. But you did say Adidas, so.

0:07:08.7 Steve Huber: Sure, sure. NFL.

0:07:08.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:07:08.7 Steve Huber: Yeah.

0:07:09.8 Jim Lovelady: Who’s your team?

0:07:09.9 Steve Huber: I’m from two hours north of Pittsburgh, so grew up in western PA was a little kid in the ’70s and ’80s. So, it was a great time to be alive in western Pennsylvania, outside Pittsburgh.

0:07:19.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. How do you feel when your team loses?

0:07:25.0 Steve Huber: No one likes when their team loses. Yeah. That’s all part of it.

0:07:29.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. I went to the University of Oklahoma, so I’m an Oklahoma fan.

0:07:34.3 Steve Huber: Nice.

0:07:34.7 Jim Lovelady: Oklahoma football and my wife, when I was working for a church, it’d be midnight on a Saturday and I’m stomping around ’cause it’s one minute left in the fourth quarter and my team is throwing it away and my wife is like, “You need to stop and go to bed. You’re leading worship tomorrow. And you have a really bad attitude.”

0:07:56.2 Steve Huber: This is not okay. Right, right.

0:07:58.7 Jim Lovelady: So it affects me way too much. Okay. So all of these questions are about identity and who you belong to and how it shapes you. So that’s where those questions are going because the conversation about identity is so much a part of our culture. So Yeah. I just want to hear you talk about identity and belonging and especially how you see that. ‘Cause you wrote about it in your book in Colossians.

0:08:27.7 Steve Huber: Sure.

0:08:28.2 Jim Lovelady: But I just want to hear you talk more about it. It’s these fun things where I get to sit down with the author of a book and ask him whatever I want.

0:08:36.2 Steve Huber: Well, there’s a lot of pressure on people right now to be like, completely self-defined. Like, “Hey, where do you… ” More traditional cultures and in other parts of the world, you look to your family, your community of origin defines you, your name is, “Hey, I’m the son or daughter of so-and-so.” You’re identified through your community and validated by your community. And there’s healthy aspects of that that can go off the rails too and be weird. But the pressure in this moment in the West is, “Hey, no pressure, decide what’s true for you, build your identity off that.” It’s completely self referenced, self validating. You have to know who you are. Define that for yourself. Really define your own meaning. And then here’s some pressure too. And then represent that to the world publicly through social media, be your own PR director.

It’s a lot of pressure and that, the negative aspects of that weight. ‘Cause there’s no one to blame if it’s not working or if you’re unhappy, if you’re completely self-defined there’s no one to blame when that goes wrong or when or when that’s hard. When you, like many of us at different points in our lives, you don’t know who you are or you’re struggling deeply in some way. So, there’s some weight to that quest of complete self-referencing self validation. Find your own truth and live out of it.

0:10:13.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. It’s fascinating how the culture says, “Hey, I got great news for you. You can be whoever you want. You can decide.” And I like how you’re saying, “No, that’s a pressure that we were not built to withstand.”

0:10:28.9 Steve Huber: Yeah. It’s not even questioned right now too. I was with one of my kids years ago in Target, and Target’s not trying to really put challenging statements on t-shirts. And so one of the statements, they’re selling t-shirts that said, “follow your heart.” What’s something that we completely, that no one will question that’ll just help us sell t-shirts. And I have a follow, where do these people have in common? I have a follow your heart quote from Steve Jobs, Dave Grohl from, of course, from Nirvana, Conway Twitty, classic country western guy, just that name’s fun to say and Mia Hamm. And so, soccer star, business star, rock stars…

0:11:15.2 Jim Lovelady: Follow your heart.

0:11:16.7 Steve Huber: Every, it’s unquestioned that that’s the way to find your truth. Find yourself, tap into a meeting and find freedom. Just follow what’s within, which is a, it’s a very different message than like, hey, truth being out there and it be discoverable and there’s something higher than us to tap into someone higher than us who can redeem, save, name us, who has the authority to choose a destiny for us. That’s a radically different message.

0:11:48.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And it’s a mixed message too, because it’s saying, “Hey, I’m going to tell you, I’m going to tell you, I’m the authority. Follow your heart.”

0:11:58.0 Steve Huber: Yeah. That’s true.

0:11:58.1 Jim Lovelady: And it’s like, “Oh, okay, y’all, I’ll do what you tell me to do.” Well, shouldn’t I just stop listening to you then? Well, we’re not going that far. We’re not thinking that critically about how our culture is sneaking in this influence that’s actually super unhealthy and very dangerous because we got, everyone that you mentioned is well flawed like every other human.

0:12:25.3 Steve Huber: Sure. Right. Right. We’ve all got things to work through. I think the irony too is like, it’s taken for granted. “Follow your heart.” And we could acknowledge that there’s some healthy aspects of that. Like, “Hey, don’t just like, do what your community says.” You actually, is this really true? Is there something transcendent to this truth? And there’s something about authentically connecting with what’s real and true yourself. There’s healthy aspects to it. And also like the culture, I think in this cultural moment, the people imagine themselves that, “Hey, I’m just going through life collecting experiences. I’m going to figure this out on my own.” What actually happens though, we’re not just traveling through outer space exploring new galaxies. (This is old school Star Trek language.) We actually end up in someone else’s orbit, you end up your life revolves around certain things.

0:13:30.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You end up a Swiftie.

0:13:31.5 Steve Huber: You end up a Swiftie, a Dallas Cowboy fan. Many deeply problematic ways this could go.

0:13:38.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. All sorts of brokenness.

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0:13:38.5 Steve Huber: All kinds of deep brokenness. No, but you could- to live for like, “Hey, I’m going to let my art define me or my career success.

0:13:49.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:13:50.5 Steve Huber: Or this one set of relationships in the effort to make meaning actually our lives revolve around something else. We put something else in the God spot and end up slaves anyway, and then the Bible’s language about slavery and putting the created thing in the place of the creator starts to make sense. We put other things in that God spot. We’re not as free as we thought we were.

0:14:18.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. We live in a world, in a culture where the meta narrative is gone and you’re left to fend for yourself. But the culture also hands out options like it’s candy. Every one of the questions that I asked you was, Nike or Adidas is what’s my brand?

0:14:36.5 Steve Huber: Right.

0:14:38.2 Jim Lovelady: My brand, I identify as that kind of person, which makes me, if I could… The way that it works is if I could just wear Jordan’s, maybe I would be as amazing a basketball player. If I could just, and we live in that fantasy. Well, that’s what it’s…

0:14:54.9 Steve Huber: Let that glory shine on us a little bit somehow. Yeah. Somehow participate in who he is, his victory.

0:15:01.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s right. The vicarious victory of this guy who’s amazing. That’s why we wear jerseys with Brady on the back or whatever.

0:15:11.9 Steve Huber: Sure. Yeah.

0:15:13.6 Jim Lovelady: That’s why my daughter, I took my daughter to the Taylor Swift concert when she came to Philadelphia.

0:15:19.0 Steve Huber: Nice.

0:15:20.0 Jim Lovelady: But I gave, I bought it was going to be like, daddy daughter go to Taylor Swift.

0:15:26.9 Steve Huber: That’s cool. That’s a strong dad daughter move. That was great.

0:15:29.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. I ended up giving my ticket to one of her friends, though.

0:15:33.8 Steve Huber: That was nice.

0:15:33.9 Jim Lovelady: And my wife and I and her, anyways, so it was a bunch of us adults who, we didn’t have a ticket, so we were just outside the holy place letting the glory just kind of…

0:15:45.7 Steve Huber: You were in the outer court.

0:15:46.5 Jim Lovelady: Go over, we were in the outer court. And the glory of Taylor, the sound just kind of coming into the parking lot where we just tailgated.

0:15:57.9 Steve Huber: That’s really fun.

0:16:00.7 Jim Lovelady: But everybody going into that concert was dressed in some Taylor Swift era. ‘Cause we were putting on our robes of righteousness, if I could just live vicariously through this person and not to pick on Swifties.

0:16:11.9 Steve Huber: Sure, sure.

0:16:12.0 Jim Lovelady: We all do it in all sorts of ways. So that’s the problem. Okay. Now, the Book of Colossians, what does the Book of Colossians say?

0:16:21.6 Steve Huber: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, right? Because the Colossians are wrestling with, there’s been a lot of ink spilled over the years. What’s this? What’s being battled here? But they’re basically, they’re Christians who are being told they need Jesus plus these other things to be complete. And Paul has to just lay out from them. This is everything. This is who Jesus is. This is His victory for you, and you’re united to Him. You’re in Christ, believers being in Christ united to Christ is this central controlling. It just controls how the Apostle Paul thinks about the Christian life. It’s the most important fact of our existence. That through faith, we’re united with Christ forever, eternally.  And yeah, that defines us. Not our sins, don’t define us. In Christ we have a destiny, in Christ we become who we are. And through His achievement on our behalf. His death counts for us. So we can say, we’ve died. If for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ, and God, you have died. Christ’s death counts for us. His resurrection is our destiny. And who we truly are, is in Him. So that’s like, that’s the thing with Colossians is we become who we’re meant to be in and through Christ Jesus.

0:17:45.9 Jim Lovelady: We double down on there is a story that is bigger than me that I can find myself brought into. And I don’t have… I no longer have to worry about, am I good enough? He is my status as a… So when Oklahoma loses, I don’t have to, and that’s why my wife is saying, I don’t have to be miserable. I’m miserable because my identity is in this. And so now it’s like, well, can we, the preeminence of Christ that is brought out in Colossians, can I find myself in identified with someone who is undaunted? Not just, you can’t defeat this person. There’s nothing better. He’s preeminent.

0:18:39.0 Steve Huber: That’s the mind blowing thing about the Book of Colossians that, Hey, we’re not under the old regime anymore. Like chapter one. It’s called the Domain of Darkness. So in his prayer for the Colossians, and in his opening and encouragement for them, and he says how he’s been praying, but he gives thanks that God has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His beloved son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. If you’re a believer in Jesus, you really are, you’re in a different place positionally, spiritually forever. You’re connected with Christ and that’s going to be true through death. You’re not in the old regime anymore, and you don’t get identity from these things from the old idols. And we don’t try to progress spiritually by the old methods either. And he, the Apostle Paul kind of riffs on that when he says, “Hey, let no one pass judgment on you.”

0:19:43.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:19:44.2 Steve Huber: “In questions of food or drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.” Apparently there’s some people making a big deal about those things. But the Apostle Paul says, “Hey, these are a shadow of the things to come. The substance has belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism and worship of angels.” Hey man, the most important fact of our existence is you’re with Christ, you’re united to Him, His victory counts for you. And leaning into that, applying that good news more deeply to our life is how spiritual growth happens.

0:20:18.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. I love how that passage, let no one pass judgment on you, and I replace it with, for the kinda music you listen to. ‘Cause it’s just what it is. In Christ it’s just what it is. It’s neither good nor bad. And let no one pass judgment on you, if it’s Nike or Adidas, if it’s, well, the Beatles-Queen thing. Maybe I have some stuff to work on there.

0:20:41.5 Steve Huber: Sure.

0:20:42.6 Jim Lovelady: But, but I replace those because it’s like in Christ, that’s the leveling of the playing field where these things become fun and they become actually a catalyst for how God can work in the kingdom. They don’t identify me, they’re just these things.

0:20:57.6 Steve Huber: Yeah. No, that’s good. I think there’s something going on profound with, in this cultural moment, the number of people renaming themselves. Like who has the authority to rename you?

0:21:13.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:21:14.5 Steve Huber: And to say, Hey, this is a name is kind of tied to fundamental identity. And, that’s kinda what you’re going through. Hey, these are fun little fan clubs, but they don’t define us. They don’t mark us. It’s God who’s actually called us, created us, called us, saved us, redeemed us. It’s even a promise in Revelation. There’s a new name given to us that only known to God and to us. That’s profound. Only God has that authority.

0:21:47.0 Jim Lovelady: So in your chapter on identity, I wrote, where did I write? Basically, I wrote like, in the margins, I Am who Jesus says I am. And that’s what you’re getting at. Tell me. I’ve been trying to figure out who I am and the world around me has been playing the authority by saying, “Hey, good news: You’re left to figure it out on your own.” And I go, that’s not good news. I’m desperate to figure it out. And I’ve been scrambling and all, none of these things have been really life giving at all. Can someone please just tell me who I am?

0:22:23.9 Steve Huber: Right. Where my mind goes. The advice isn’t look within, just look within. Because let’s admit our hearts are fickle. And change. And what we’re convinced is right. One second can be different next week, next month. And, but the invitation of the gospel is to look up, “Hey, look to God to find that.” So the good news for someone struggling to find themselves is that, hey, there is actually a creator who created you and who actually calls people and God as creator and Christ role in creation is actually one of the themes of Colossians. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. Everything is created by Him. And, He’s first in everything. So they were created, all things were created through Him and for Him. Someone like that has the authority to tell you who you are.

0:23:31.2 Jim Lovelady: Right.

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0:23:36.5 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Tuesdays and Friday mornings to pray. And this week we’re praying for our teams in Japan and Singapore. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks in Japan and Singapore. Give them joy in their work, in your kingdom, and the pleasure of your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let your grace abound in their relationships with, with one another, with family members, and with their children, with the people that they serve. Heal all the sicknesses. Liberate the enslaved. Protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness. Restore to them the joy of your salvation. And let your kingdom come and your will be done in these places. Just as it is in heaven. We pray these things in your name. Amen. Now, back to the conversation. 

0:24:39.0 Jim Lovelady: Why would you want anyone else to tell you who you are? Much less my own psyche or whatever the own voice in my head. The Colossians one passage is amazing because it’s like, this is why Jesus is the best. This beautiful. I don’t know, is it poetry or is it prose? Whatever it is, it’s beautiful.

0:25:05.4 Steve Huber: It’s the hymn like, riff on who Jesus is and the work of Jesus. We recognize even in this cultural moment, a creator has unique authority to say what something is for. So in my old neighborhood in Philadelphia, there’s a, guitar shop called the DiPinto Guitar Shop. Chris DiPinto, my buddy and friend, hand makes these guitars, and I have one of his guitars that, it’s built in America, handmade in the Philadelphia area. You got to love that. They do some overseas stuff now too, to make it a little bit more affordable, but it’s this beautiful guitar. And I used that as a sermon illustration one time, because like, this is the guy who designed this, put it together with his hands. When that guitar needs work.

0:25:54.4 Jim Lovelady: You take it to that dude.

0:25:55.0 Steve Huber: You take it to that dude literally has his name on it. DiPinto, really cool headstock. When we put ourselves in God’s hands and our creator… The one who created us, saw us, saves us. We’re putting ourselves in the one in whose image we’re made. The one who made us, the one who uniquely has the authority to call the shots and like what we’re for. Where do, how do we find purpose?

0:26:21.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. In, Toy Story, one of my buddies preached and he used, what’s the Cowboy’s name in Toy Story?

0:26:29.0 Steve Huber: Woody.

0:26:29.7 Jim Lovelady: Woody.

0:26:30.1 Steve Huber: Woody? We double-checked that, but I think we got it right. Woody.

0:26:38.2 Jim Lovelady: So whose name is on the bottom of Woody’s boot? It’s the kid who owns him, you know? It’s like he says, he says, what’s true about Woody.

0:26:47.5 Steve Huber: In this cultural moment too, belonging to someone else can sound like bad news.

0:26:51.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:26:53.7 Steve Huber: You know?

0:26:55.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Someone tells me who I am because I belong to them, and I am a part of that community. You’re a church planter. You have a high value of the gathering of God’s people and the prophetic voice that the church can speak into this culture. But that there’s so much about community and unity and reconciliation and belonging in all of that. So yeah. The say whatever about that, because I’m really curious about how identity and belonging fit together.

0:27:28.2 Steve Huber: One thing that’s interesting about the internet, and like, you can find your identity with other subgroup that there is out there, but human beings, our identity is reinforced by the community we’re embedded in. Which is why there’s different online communities and subcultures. And like, you actually being accepted and loved by that group is a big deal. When someone says, “Hey, I’m completely self-referencing.” Well, you care what your other think tank friends think, or academic colleagues or we’re always validated by, if someone’s in a gang, they care very much what like their community says about them. And they’ll even suffer to not lose face before that community. So that the communal nature of being a human being is a big deal. An interesting thing about this cultural moment, well, two things. One, everyone talks about community. So when Liberti was planted, so it’s Liberti with an I. L-I-B-E-R-T-I, it’s the Latin word for the people who used to be slaves, but are freed because a ransom was paid. So the first Liberti Church was in Philly. It was like a Philly connection. It’s this deep gospel-biblical connection. It seemed like at that time, this is 2002, talking about community felt like fresh and, hey, this is a felt human need. Let’s talk about how Jesus calls us into community with him and with each other. An interesting aspect about that is the idea of community is almost overused. A lot of times the local coffee shop will say, “Hey, we’re in community.” Everyone, all these different kinds of businesses and different outfits are creating community, supposedly, but we really need to think about how the gospel uniquely calls us into community.

0:29:36.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:29:36.9 Steve Huber: With Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and in community with each other. And the purpose of that covenantal community, which is people that are different than us, who are going to vote different, who are going to think different about a lot of things, who have very dramatic different experiences than us, but what unites us is being together in Christ. So it’s a different basis for the community, and the community has a different mission. I’ve felt, over the years, the need to emphasize like the… What’s unique about the creation of the Christian community and the mission of the Christian community, which is, a lot of times communities are defined about what they’re against.

0:30:19.1 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:30:19.5 Steve Huber: Not what they’re for.

0:30:19.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Who was it? I don’t know what pastor or theologian said, “The church is the only institution that exists on behalf of its non-members.” I don’t remember who said that, but that’s kinda what you’re getting at.

0:30:30.7 Steve Huber: Yeah. I think that might be a Harvey Kahn quote. Someone’s going to put in the comments. We’re going to figure out. Someone’s going to fill that in.

0:30:37.8 Jim Lovelady: Harvey Kahn is a fine guess I’ll go with Harvey Kahn.

0:30:40.3 Steve Huber: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:42.3 Jim Lovelady: So how does, how did that, how did that work itself out with the people who are the Liberti? I didn’t realize that, that that’s what.

0:30:50.9 Steve Huber: That’s what it was from.

0:30:51.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s what that meant. That’s cool.

0:30:52.1 Steve Huber: Yeah. The, just like, how did we practice community? We’ve gotta fight for this. I think in one of the things I think didn’t understand the power of over the years is how the, the cultures constantly deforming us in some ways. Like just to hang out in America. Think about the number of ads we see in one day. Right. We’re shaped with consumerism impulses. How we think about everything is hyper individualistically. And the default setting for human interaction is a consumer. So it’s like common to give like churches, your church probably has a Google review, probably has Google reviews. Like it’s a certain number of stars, which is admitting that the way we’re thinking about what we’re belonging to is from the stance and posture of a consumer. And I have the right to rate this.

0:31:55.6 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:31:58.0 Steve Huber: This podcast will obviously get a very high rating. People love it. [laughter] or low. It could be super low, could be super low rating.

0:32:06.9 Jim Lovelady: Any rating actually helps.

[laughter]

0:32:12.7 Steve Huber: There you go. But isn’t it interesting that like, that’s, it just reveals that’s the it kind of default setting rather than viewing each other as brothers and sisters. I was thinking about Colossians 1, this morning, when the apostle Paul was giving thanks for the church and Philippi, he’s like, your partners, I think, my God, every time I think of you, because you’re partnership in the gospel. And he says later in the same paragraph, it’s right for me to feel this way about you. I hold you in my heart. We’re all partakers of grace. We’re partner partakers of this good news together. We’re covenantally made a people. So, that anti, we’re an, Christians in the west right now have a deep anti-institutional vibe. No one wants to join anything.

0:33:01.0 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:33:02.8 Steve Huber: Which I get, churches are full of people who are struggling to work out Jesus in their lives. That’s what the Bible says. Sometimes people blow it. I blow it. Leaders make mistakes. And also God has made covenant promises. And one of the countercultural things Jesus asked us to do is to commit to your community. And don’t think of yourself as a consumer, but as a brother and sister.

0:33:27.7 Jim Lovelady: When I go to the grocery store, the same grocery store over and over again, I go to the same Brad, the checkout guy, and months and months and months pass, I’m going to going to Brad. And if Brad, one day he goes, “Hey, how’s your marriage? Are you treating your wife well?” I be like, dude, it’s none your business. You are my, you’re my grocer. It’s none of your business. Like we have a transactional relationship where you beep the stuff through and I give you my credit card. You don’t have access. You know, because it’s a consumer relationship. This is what we’re talking about here as a community. People who all in Colossians are putting on the righteousness of Christ. And so if I have the righteousness of Christ, you have the righteousness of Christ. These things give us access to where like, it’s that community that goes, “Hey, how’s your, marriage?” “Are you treating your wife well?” This isn’t consumeristic and we still want to behave as if it is because when people push in, we go, “Oh, I gotta find a different church.” No.

0:34:37.9 Steve Huber: Yeah. No, that’s right. And the ESV, it translates, a lot of times the translation is brothers in Colossians, but it’s the Greek for adelphoi. It means it was used in sibling context. He’s clearly.

0:34:54.8 Jim Lovelady: Brothers And sisters.

0:34:55.9 Steve Huber: Brothers and sisters. And that, hey, if Jesus saves you into a community, and brings you into a family that thinking’s like foundational. So Colossians 1:2, to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossi, and there’s a little, you know, footnote there, or brothers and sisters. It’s used in context where men and women are being spoken to. And it’s obvious, even at the end, there’s a church leader that’s being greeted. Nympha and the church in her house, he’s clearly speaking to everyone at the church. Brothers and sisters. That “family of God” thinking is foundational, for How we are to think of other Christians that God’s put in our lives and covenant community.

0:35:51.9 Jim Lovelady: What do you say when the person says, yeah, but the church is toxic or. And you already said this a little bit, it’s a bunch of broken people that are trying to figure this out. What’s the encouragement to keep leaning into that?

0:36:07.0 Steve Huber: Yeah. A lot of times, like how I just think about this practically, just try to listen well, love well, how have you been hurt? What is it that you’re dealing with? Did you know what was it a betrayal? Was it someone you were, a leader who was harsh, unkind, or went off the rails somehow. Find out what that is and lament that with them. Seek to enter into that and love and just listen to them. And also just point out like, hey, the new testament church has had that same kind of stuff. And there’s like advice about what to do to discipline an elder in 1st Timothy. In other words, that happened. And there’s leaders who are blowing it, and Paul’s like, “Hey, this guy who was with me now has deserted me.” And we, it should make us have biblical realism. Hey, God has called us into this partly-sanctified community. We’re working it out. And yet this is, these are Jesus’ people and He’s forgiven their, sins and mine and yours. And this is the context for our growth. So to just make it normal, help them have biblical realism. And, there was a guy named Dwight Smith was part of church planting movements around the world. He had a fascinating story. He was one of those guys who was like, “I want to be all in for Jesus, and I love Jesus, but I don’t want to be part of the church.”

0:37:36.4 Jim Lovelady: Oh, okay.

0:37:39.2 Steve Huber: And later he completely changed his, he changed his tune on that because what God wants to do in the world, He wants to do in and through His people. It’s just God’s plan for working in the world is the community of His covenant people. Jesus bonded them in love and that’s who God, those are Jesus’ hands and feet in the world. That’s the body of Christ. I forget who said this first, but I love to say this line, “It’s hard to say you love Jesus when you hate His wife.” And Jesus has one bride, the church. Jesus is committed to the church. Jesus loves the church. If you’re a believer, you should be part of the church and give yourself to the people of Jesus and community of Jesus. And that’s just flat out like God’s plan and where God works in the world. So that’s like the push, the nudge on that.

0:38:37.9 Jim Lovelady: I like how you say all of that but it’s not with this, “Sorry get over it this is how it is.” But it’s this very present, “I want you to belong and I want you to feel like you belong, I’m not willing to let this, I’m not building a wall, that says sorry you gotta just get over this.”

0:38:56.0 Steve Huber: Yeah let’s not pretend like church hurt isn’t hurt, that’s real it does hurt. I’m thinking of 2 Timothy 4. 2 Timothy, Paul’s, there’s many different places you could look in that book about Paul’s own church hurt. He’s had a lot of people abandon him. He says at the end, “Do your best to come to me soon, for Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he’s very useful to me for ministry.”

0:39:35.8 Steve Huber: If you… Sort of following along what he’s saying about suffering, the apostle Paul is hurting and he says, “Can you please get here soon? This guy who’s with me deserted me, and I only have this one guy with me right now.” And I think Paul, Paul’s more honest about his hurt sometimes than Christians want to be. Like 2 Corinthians 1, he says, “We don’t want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. We are so utterly burdened beyond our strength, we despaired of life itself.” Like, he’s honest about the hurt, and God meets him in that. But yeah, mourn with those who mourn. We don’t have to pretend like church hurt isn’t real hurt. It is. And yet Jesus can meet us in that.

0:40:30.5 Jim Lovelady: Even in that.

0:40:32.2 Steve Huber: Even in that and we can, move out in love to continue to love people.

0:40:37.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Jesus weeps with those who weep, you know. We’re not just told to weep with those who weep. Jesus weeps. Jesus wept.

0:40:43.1 Steve Huber: Sounds like something in the Bible. Yeah.

0:40:46.2 Jim Lovelady: So the invitation to follow the God who is so preeminent, so victorious, so glorious that He can even do that, is like, okay, do I really believe that? Can I really rest in that? I hope it’s true. I’m going to act like it’s true. And maybe I’ll start to see that it’s true. All right, last question. You’re writing this book, you’re wrestling with Jesus in the Book of Colossians. What did that look like? Like, where did he bring you to conviction and restoration and joy in the midst of as you were writing this?

0:41:22.1 Steve Huber: Well, one of the interesting experiences I had and in the experience of writing the book is I didn’t want to write a book, and the faith that I regularly have to exercise to preach and teach, like, hey, every sermon you’ve ever preached in your life could have been better. We could believe more deeply.

0:41:42.8 Jim Lovelady: Oh, yeah, totally.

0:41:44.6 Steve Huber: And we get to trust every week, trust God is going to work in this and help people and help people see Jesus. It was a different kind of faith for me to rest in that for writing.

0:41:58.1 Jim Lovelady: Interesting.

0:42:00.7 Steve Huber: And so it was… The writing of this was an adventure of faith. Hey, this sounds like something in the Bible. How about I believe it’s good news for me? I’m going to rest in who I am in Christ and humbly serve Him, and I’m not defined by how this book is or how any area of ministry is, but I’m just going to humbly use my gifts and serve them and trust that they bless God’s people. And basically had to apply the gospel to myself to have the faith to finish the project. So I was grateful. I was grateful for that, and the Lord met me in it.

0:42:37.0 Jim Lovelady: Okay, I’m just going to show up. It’s…

0:42:38.2 Steve Huber: I’m going to show up…

0:42:41.2 Jim Lovelady: My faith is… Here I am. Okay, I’m going to write something. This is not, I guess, comfort zone or?

0:42:49.7 Steve Huber: It was not comfort zone. Yeah. I have friends who write all the time and, write PDFs that everyone wants and write articles. And that’s not my gig. That’s not my normal course of ministry in a year. So yeah, this was an adventure in faith.

0:43:01.6 Jim Lovelady: Well, I really appreciate that you took that adventure through the church that you are pastoring now. You’re at Covenant Doylestown now. What’s your hope for them? But also, you may be looking at them, but it’s actually more than just them. What’s your hope for them as they wrestle with the Book of Colossians, as they get together in their small groups to wrangle out these things? What’s your hope?

0:43:28.5 Steve Huber: Well, this is the glory that we’re offered to, we’re offered in Christ. Like, we don’t even know what we have in Christ. And so the invitation of the gospel. And the gospel, yes, is for Christians, not just for people who are becoming Christians right now, but the gospel is our food every day, is to continue in to walk in the Jesus that we have been offered. So one of the key passages is that just as you receive Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him. Chapter 2, verse 5, “Rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving, just as you received Him, like walk in that, walk in who Jesus is.” And so my heart prayer for our people, and this is deeply mysterious, right? Like we get what we have in Christ, but we absolutely don’t as well. It’s so deep and mysterious. The God of the universe has set His love on us. The one who is before all things and who’s reconciled all things is now. We live in His kingdom, we’re united with Him forever. And so the invitation, my hope and prayer, we just press into the mystery of that, all the riches of that. That’s where all the riches are. There’s like the gospel so deep, we can just say to ourselves and to each other, let’s press into know more of what Jesus has done for us. Let’s keep on grabbing hold of this gospel and believing in ourselves, holding it out for each other. So it’s like not new things, which is like Paul’s whole gig. He’s like, “Do you realize what you’ve already have in Christ? It’s tapping, getting more of those riches into our souls.”

0:45:21.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah, when you read that passage, was it 2-5?

0:45:25.4 Steve Huber: 2-6 and 7.

0:45:27.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh, okay. There, continue to live your… I have the NRSV. “Continue to live your lives in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith.” When you’re reading that, and I’m picturing someone just walking receptively. I just want to be always open-handed and whenever I find myself, hey, if ever you see me with my hands clenched, come over and just like open them up again ’cause we weren’t meant to walk this way.

0:45:55.4 Steve Huber: Yeah.

0:45:57.1 Jim Lovelady: You know, I want to be open-handed to the mystery.

0:46:00.9 Steve Huber: Yeah, the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory. I think it’s an antidote to, it’s like all the stuff online, all the, their spiritual fads, hey, you need this new thing. And so it’s a very different message to say to people, you’ve been given everything on Christ, let’s press in to all the riches we have in Him. That’s how we become who we are and who we’re meant to be.

0:46:28.4 Jim Lovelady: Amen. Thank you so much for hanging out.

0:46:31.4 Steve Huber: Hey, thanks for inviting me. Good to spend this time with you.

[music]

0:46:42.1 Jim Lovelady: Here’s my summary of this conversation. You are loved. This is who Jesus says you are. You are loved. Our culture is constantly clamoring for your attention, for your devotion, constantly promising a place of belonging. If you would just find your identity in that thing, give yourself body and soul to that brand, or that cause, or that institution. But it’s all empty promises. There is nothing that you need to do to make yourself worthy of love. This is what grace is all about. You are already loved more deeply than you realize. This is who you are. And I know that you are prone to wander. We’re all prone to look for our identity outside of Jesus. And we at Serge know that this is just as true, maybe even more so for missionaries, pastors and ministry leaders. That’s why Serge as a missions-sending agency has the renewal ministry, a whole team dedicated to reminding Christians how much they need the Gospel, especially the ones who work in ministry, calling them, continuously calling them back to their true identity in Jesus. We have to continue to come back to our identity in Christ and repent of all the false identities and keep experiencing fresh grace, becoming more and more enthralled with Jesus and His rule and reign over all things. So for more information about how Serge’s renewal ministries can help you and your church and ministry field grow in grace and the propulsion of how grace sends you out on mission, go to serge.org/renewal. And as you go, inviting people to a place where they belong, in the presence of Christ, go with His blessing and pleasure over your participation in His kingdom. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you and turn His bright eyes to you and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting. Amen.

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