A Safe Place for Struggling Teens: Mental Health and the Mercy of Christ

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His Kingdom.

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0:00:22.6 Jim Lovelady: Hello, beloved. Welcome to Grace at the Fray. Have you ever wanted to help someone you love but felt completely unsure how? You want to be present, you want to offer comfort, you want to say something that actually helps, but instead you feel stuck, and maybe helpless. Today’s episode is about what it really means to come alongside others with wisdom and grace, especially in the midst of struggle. And here’s the surprising truth. The only way that we learn how to do that is by first seeing how the Lord comes alongside us. As scripture says, we comfort others with the comfort we’ve received ourselves. On the surface, today’s conversation might sound like a conversation about a book on teenagers and mental health. And it is that. But if you listen closely, you’ll hear something much deeper. This episode is really about how the gospel speaks into the ordinary, painful, confusing details of everyday life, and how the moment you step into someone else’s struggle, you discover just how much you need the good news of Jesus too. I see this all the time when I walk with people through Mentored Sonship. We get into very real, very specific things of life. Work frustrations, conflict at home, even specific as who does the dishes? And I often say, if the gospel is real, then it’s real for this. Today’s episode is a beautiful example of that truth, because if Jesus really died for our sins and brokenness, if He truly rose again and now reigns, if His Kingdom is breaking into the world, and if He’s given us his spirit, then the gospel isn’t abstract. It’s for freedom from our fear, our shame, our anxiety, freedom for in our relationships and in our daily lives. My guests today are Danny and Monica Kwon, authors of 𝘛𝘦𝘦𝘯𝘢𝘨𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘔𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘏𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘵𝘩: 𝘈 𝘏𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘣𝘰𝘰𝘬 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘗𝘢𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘴, 𝘗𝘢𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘩 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴. And they take seriously the conviction that if the gospel is real, it’s real for every situation a teenager can face and for every parent, pastor, and community member who wants to walk alongside them in love. At Serge, as we’re launching new missionaries to the field, we always tell them it’s inevitable that they’re going to experience an intensified awareness of their sin and the brokenness that is in them and around them, in their communities and in the culture in which they serve. It’s very important for us to convey to our field workers that we’re not surprised by any of these things, any of the sin, any of the brokenness. And we want to be there to help them. And this goes for their children as well. Third culture kids face very unique pressures, and I think Danny and Monica’s book is going to be a great resource in that regard. So I want to immediately make a plug for this book. There’s a link in the show notes. Go check it out. Now, you may not be a teenager or a parent of one. I happen to have three teenagers, so I feel a particular urgency here with this episode. But this conversation is for anyone asking, how does the gospel actually meet us in the places where life feels hardest? Danny and Monica wrote a fantastic book that is a great blend of clinical and pastoral aspects of ministering to teens. But it’s not just a handbook for wisdom on how to help teens, it’s really a handbook for prayer. So I want to frame this conversation with Psalm 46:1-7. And as I read this, let it be a catalyst for prayer. Take a deep breath. “The Lord is with us. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear. Though the earth should change, though the mountains should shake into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with its tumult. Selah. There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy habitation of the Most High. God is in the midst of the city. It shall not be moved. God will help it when the morning dawns. The nations are in an uproar, the kingdoms totter. He utters his voice and the earth melts. The Lord of hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.”

 

0:04:48.6 Jim Lovelady: Well, Monica, Danny, welcome to Grace at the Fray.

 

0:04:52.6 Monica Kim: Thank you for having us.

 

0:04:53.9 Danny Kwon: Thank you. Thank you.

 

0:04:54.6 Jim Lovelady: I think it’s been almost a year of us making this happen, but we did it. Our mutual friend, Sunny, was like, hey, these folks are writing a book and you’re going to want to have them on the podcast. And then when you sent me the book, I was like, oh man, I want them to be on this podcast. I want to hear a little bit of the background of who you all are and how you came to write the book. But then I just kind of want to jump in and explore some of these concepts. You wrote 𝘛𝘦𝘦𝘯𝘢𝘨𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘔𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘏𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘵𝘩: 𝘈 𝘏𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘣𝘰𝘰𝘬 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘗𝘢𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘴, 𝘗𝘢𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘩 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴. I want to jump into that. But yeah, who are you?

 

0:05:30.2 Danny Kwon: I’m Danny, and I was a youth pastor at one church for 29 years.

 

0:05:35.6 Jim Lovelady: Well done.

 

0:05:36.3 Danny Kwon: And I’m still alive. Yeah. That’s what I tell people. Youth and family pastor, I really believe youth ministry should be integrated with the family. And then walking alongside my wife, partnering in ministry, but she’s also a psychologist and biblical counselor. And just seeing over the years, there’s a Supreme Court case where the judge said, I’ll know it when I see it. And over the last 15 years of my 29 years, you could just see the rise in mental health issues of teenagers. It’s just you know it when you see it. Where I live, there’s a mental health clinic right near my home. And having to help so many more families and teenagers be admitted into that clinic. We’ve had one of our own teenagers in middle school was bullied and struggled with mental health. And so seeing those things was really… And then thinking about how to deal with it from a church level, a family level, a teenager level. But also being married to a biblical counselor and psychologist, we could really talk about it and think about how to work through some of these issues and help teenagers and families, especially the parents who deal with it.

 

0:07:08.8 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:07:09.2 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:07:10.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. All right. Your turn.

 

0:07:11.6 Monica Kim: Yeah. A little bit about me. I was also in youth ministry before I became a biblical counselor and psychologist, not only working alongside Danny in youth and family ministries, but prior to meeting him and getting married, was in youth ministry even as long as way back from then, after graduating seminary and then going into longer term kind of youth and family ministry with Danny. Throughout that time, the teenagers that we served and their families were consistently expressing and showing a lot of challenges. Emotional, mental, all of those kinds of real difficult kinds of issues. And so I think while we were doing ministry together, obviously I’m just working alongside him, but we were actually really baffled initially. This was hard to address because some of the issues were a lot more difficult.

 

0:08:21.7 Jim Lovelady: Like harder than before?

 

0:08:22.5 Monica Kim: Harder than before, but we also saw more difficult kinds of presentations. Like let’s say, students in church, a couple of them kind of sharing more intense thoughts and behaviors, saying that they’re seeing things or that they’re hearing God tell them certain things that they should do. So even those things had happened as we were in ministry for a while. And so it was pretty challenging to be able to address all of those with parents kind of coming to us and asking for support. We often had to go with parents to support them in their conversations at school, because at schools they were trying to address the issue too. So that kind of introduced us to recognizing some of our limitations. And then for me, that I think started the call to consider how else can I understand this issue in the church and be able to really support, but also be able to be there in a gospel-centered, but also in a way that understands exactly what they’re facing, the teenagers and the families, as it relates to mental health issues.

 

0:09:41.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You all strike me as a fantastic team to write a book like this because you’re a youth pastor and you’re a psychologist. So taking pastoral ministry and therapy and kind of mushing it all together creates this handbook that, I mean, I have an 18-year-old, a 16-year-old, and a 13-year-old at the timing of this episode. And so I’m devouring this. I’m like, oh yeah. I think I went straight to the chapter on screen time.

 

0:10:12.4 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:10:12.9 Jim Lovelady: But just kind of bouncing all over the place. So my brain wants to follow that whole bouncing all over the place like it’s a handbook in this conversation, but we’re not going to. I want to start kind of like, okay, what are some of the foundations for this? Especially as it’s like we’re mixing pastoral ministry with psychology, with therapy in ways that, when I was looking through the book, it’s like, oh, this is really fantastic because we’re going, okay, there are so many really wonderful things out there that we can glean from the world of secular psychology. But we’re deeply rooted and grounded in the Bible. So maybe start with that. Unpack a little bit of the gospel foundation that brought you guys to write this and then how you’ve been able to go, oh hey, and that. Oh, and this too. You know what I mean?

 

0:11:04.4 Monica Kim: Yeah. So the way that we had thought about understanding mental health in teenagers and how to address it or talk about it and consider what would be helpful is first of all from our scriptural, from the Bible, truth of what our world actually is. Where are we living actually? And the truth of scripture and the truth that we know through Christ is that we are actually living in the Kingdom of God because Christ has come. And that what’s going on is that there’s also still a lot of brokenness and hardship that we all experience. And that is something that really testifies to what the truth of the gospel is, that the Kingdom is here and also now, but also future. And that we still are awaiting Jesus’s return to His final consummation.

And so in that context, both are true, that there will be great brokenness and the love of God through Christ has come and has redeemed. And how do we address the brokenness in particular ways as it relates to teenagers and mental health that are true but doesn’t have the last say? Because the word of God and the living hope in Jesus gives a greater perspective for it. And how to then support families and teenagers to walk alongside those who are struggling in the midst of mental health issues. It’s kind of the framework in which we started this book and bringing those perspectives. So it’s under the umbrella, but also the foundation. I’d say both. They’re both the same, but I think it’s just the perspective that’s so important to bring living hope.

 

0:13:06.5 Jim Lovelady: Right.

 

0:13:07.6 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:13:07.7 Danny Kwon: And we like to talk about the book in terms of two aspects, gospel hope and practical guidance. But really the foundation is gospel hope for the way we do ministry, for the way we care about teens, for the way we want to care about parents and really equip them and empower them with the gospel, that ultimately they’ll find their hope and their solutions to their struggles in what the gospel has to offer. And even talking about things like anxiety and bipolar disorder and eating disorders in a gospel lens, what the brokenness is and how the gospel offers hope. So even in the second half of the book, which talks about more specific mental health issues, we do talk about it from a gospel lens.

 

0:14:04.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. The gospel is this foundation. It’s the walls. It’s the ceiling. It’s the drywall. Oh, it just so happens to be everything. It’s the air inside. And so I love the idea of take a topic like anxiety, take a topic like eating disorder, take any of these topics that, as you’re saying, you have been seeing become more ubiquitous, I guess. And it’s just all over the place and it’s intense. It’s just as intense, if not more intense as it’s ever been. But the gospel is very relevant for these things. And so how has that freed you to go, okay, well, I can take the DSM and I can take all the other tools that common grace gives us? And how have you been able to incorporate those in some really… I mean, feel free to tell specific stories or no names, I guess.

 

0:15:05.8 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:15:07.2 Monica Kim: Right. Right.

 

0:15:07.3 Jim Lovelady: But of how you’re able to see these two things come together.

 

0:15:09.6 Monica Kim: If I think about the DSM, first of all, it’s a manual for categorizing various mental health issues and identifying criteria that folks who struggle with it might meet to be diagnosed with that mental health issue.

 

0:15:31.4 Jim Lovelady: And it’s like three inches thick.

 

0:15:33.0 Monica Kim: Sure. Sure.

 

0:15:33.9 Jim Lovelady: What do we say the DSM…

 

0:15:35.0 Danny Kwon: Like five inches.

 

0:15:36.2 Jim Lovelady: Is it the five now?

 

0:15:36.9 Monica Kim: Yeah, TR. Yeah, 5-TR. I know. Anyway, that in itself has limitations in terms of it doesn’t capture everything. But having said that though, why we may have used certain kind of categories is that I do think through the common grace of God, we are able to organize the chaos of mental health issues, not in a perfect way, but in some form to be able to focus on one thing at a time. So we use that understanding of the categories not for simply to diagnose someone or a diagnostic category, but to be able to say, hey, we live in such a broken world that it feels overwhelmingly chaotic. It feels like things have no organization, but God orders, He speaks, and things are organized. And so in that kind of common grace, we use that as a common language that people have often identified with to continue to focus in on one kind of issue at a time because it’s too overwhelming to talk about every issue or every struggle.

 

0:16:54.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. It turns the volume down on all the other things so that we can really focus on this one thing.

 

0:16:59.3 Monica Kim: Right. So that’s one example of how we’ve used, let’s say, the psychology categories, psychological categories, because it’s like a common language to connect with. How do we then speak about it in light of the gospel, in light of the Kingdom of God?

 

0:17:16.4 Danny Kwon: And can I say something to the listeners that one of the chapters on this issue of common grace and categorizing using biblical, also secular or psychological standards, I kind of initially took a stab at that chapter with Monica’s help because I’m not a mental health professional and I’ve not been trained. And I’ve realized through the writing of the book that there’s a wide variety of views on even common grace and what we can learn and glean from secular psychologies. And there’s people who are very conservative on what their views on common grace is. And then there’s more, for lack of a better word, more progressive. And I’ve recommended that you figure out what your theological views are, what your church’s views are, what your church’s view is on counseling and psychology. And you have to figure it out for your church because there is a wide variety of thoughts and thinking on this, and there’s sometimes a clash on what people think is correct.

 

0:18:33.1 Monica Kim: In the biblical counseling world.

 

0:18:35.1 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:18:35.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, everywhere. Go anywhere.

 

0:18:38.2 Monica Kim: Anywhere. Everywhere.

 

0:18:39.2 Jim Lovelady: Where two or more are gathered, there’s conflicts.

 

0:18:40.8 Danny Kwon: For sure. Everywhere.

 

0:18:42.1 Jim Lovelady: That kind of leads to one of my other questions. Y’all wrote this to serve, to serve teenagers, to serve their parents, and to serve the church. And so talk to me about some of the way that you’re hoping that the church engages with these things. I mean, you kind of have a whole chapter on it.

 

0:19:03.5 Danny Kwon: I mean, I think one of the things we want to be clear of, I’m not a mental health professional, but…

 

0:19:11.2 Jim Lovelady: She is.

 

0:19:11.8 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m glad to be married to her. But I know every youth pastor is not married to a professional counselor, biblical counselor. But we really wanted to create something that the church can use for guidance, gospel hope and guidance, that can really serve them to… Like one of the chapters I wrote about, be a refuge, a lighthouse, a first responder in helping teenagers. We might not be able to provide the long-term care, but I really like the term which my friend, actually I borrowed from him, a first responder, the initial care. And there are some things in the book that we talk about that we can do to help teenagers. But not being mental health professionals, we have certain things that we can do and certain things that even in the book we suggest. When do we know to send them to a mental health professional? When is it beyond my scope as a church leader or a pastor or a youth volunteer? And so really thinking about all the different ways, whether just being a first responder, whether offering pastoral care, whether helping a family seek out mental health professional care while I also walk alongside them, all the different variety of ways that we can care for our families and teenagers as the church.

 

0:20:45.8 Monica Kim: And added to that, as someone who has been working with individuals and teenagers and families specifically on mental health issues professionally, I often thought to myself how the church might not know how important they are in the care of teenagers and others, but specifically we’re talking about teenagers’ struggle with mental health issues. I would be sitting working with teenagers and continuing to encourage them while we talk about… And mind you, I’m talking about believing teenagers who are struggling to know, in their experience that overwhelms them, how the gospel is really practical and brings deep comfort for the moment as they continue to grow and heal, et cetera. And I often found myself though, in the midst of those discussions saying, hey, reach out to your church, get more support, engage in things that are encouraging to you. When you sit listening to the passage or the message on Sundays, how can you sit with the gospel that may be spoken and connect with that comfort of God in that moment? So there were lots of ways in which we would talk about that. And I’d often say to Danny, I don’t know if the churches know how important they are in walking alongside, because oftentimes churches will kind of say, oh, this is a bit too much for us. I get it, but actually what they really need, a lot of teenagers when they struggle, is that greater support and encouragement, a place of refuge and strength that really points to our God, who is the refuge and strength. So, yeah.

 

0:22:48.0 Danny Kwon: So we write about for parents to partner with their church and their youth group, and then also for the church and youth ministries and youth volunteers, ways that the youth ministry can even partner with teenagers who are struggling with mental health. How to maybe involve them in a small group. How to come alongside their care when they are struggling with mental health. There are so many things like… Or even things like, be aware of the games that you do that might trigger a teenager. Things like that.

 

0:23:24.1 Monica Kim: And think compassionately.

 

0:23:25.8 Jim Lovelady: And compassionate care is a term that you all use a lot in the book. Yeah. Say more about that.

 

0:23:31.3 Monica Kim: We get befuddled by teenagers who struggle. Lots of reactions will come up, and those are all normal reactions.

 

0:23:40.5 Jim Lovelady: Like it’s a problem to be solved.

 

0:23:43.0 Monica Kim: Right. Problem to be solved, or I can’t solve it because it’s too much and feeling really insecure about it. So there are lots of common kinds of reactions. And to be able to… We write in the book about being aware of those reactions because that may be a barrier to actually lean in to compassionate care for teenagers and their families who are struggling, that it’s actually what they would really need is that entering in and being able to be with them, even if they don’t have all the answers.

 

0:24:22.9 Jim Lovelady: Right. Right.

 

0:24:24.1 Monica Kim: And while we do give a few practical guidance, this is not everything. We don’t want to mistakenly say that it’s a simple answer, but it is a relationship. It is about being with. It is about joining in, not having all the answers, but being able to pray together and trust together, even trust on behalf of them, those who cannot trust.

 

0:24:49.0 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s being the church.

 

0:24:50.6 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:24:54.0 Jim Lovelady: I want to pause this conversation and invite you to join us in prayer for the Serge field workers that we at the headquarters here in Philadelphia are praying for each week. We meet on Thursday and Friday mornings to pray. And this week, we’re praying for our teams in Northern Ireland and North Africa. Would you pray with me? Lord, we pray that you would bless these folks and especially the teenagers among them. Show them that you are their refuge and strength and ever present help in trouble. Give them joy in their work in Your Kingdom and the pleasure of Your joy as they follow you. Give them wisdom and let Your grace abound in their relationships with one another, with family members and children and the people they serve. Heal all sicknesses, liberate the enslaved. Protect them from the powers and principalities of darkness. Restore to them the joy of Your salvation, and let Your Kingdom come and Your will be done in these places just as it is in Heaven. We pray in Your name. Amen. Now back to the conversation.

 

0:26:07.2 Jim Lovelady: Okay. So I’m a pastor. I’m always on the lookout for success stories, happy stories because there are just admittedly so many not so happy, not so success stories. So can you think of a success story where a church did compassionate care well. No names, you don’t have to do names specifically, but tell me a success story.

 

0:26:21.1 Danny Kwon: I mean, I appreciated you actually emailing us about this because to really think about… Because it is kind of the first podcast that really asks us to think about how we really help youth.

 

0:26:34.6 Monica Kim: And walked alongside.

 

0:26:34.9 Jim Lovelady: And to send them.

 

0:26:35.7 Danny Kwon: Yeah. To send…

 

0:26:36.9 Jim Lovelady: Youth are on mission too.

 

0:26:37.9 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:26:39.0 Jim Lovelady: Isn’t that a ministry?

 

0:26:42.3 Danny Kwon: I mean, even like one of our own children who struggled with mental health in middle school. Because I had a little bit of a bigger youth group. I had seminary interns and even the seminary intern who… Even though my kids, I was their youth pastor, it’s more like their father. And so that seminary intern…

 

0:27:07.8 Monica Kim: We’d reach out to them.

 

0:27:10.1 Danny Kwon: We’d reach out to them and they’d have some meals and talk with them and really minister to them.

 

0:27:19.3 Monica Kim: And as parents, we felt then a lot more sense of partnership or comfort in knowing our son who struggled would come back and feel a little more hope and enjoy just talking and not being alone in his struggles. So that’s definitely in terms of experience. We had a student who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and also schizophrenia. So she would have these kind of times when she would experience hearing voices and one specifically, and I’m not going to go through all the different specific things, but she would frequently text Danny, just rapid fire texts saying, God is against me. I’m really afraid. I did something. He’s going to hurt me now. So a lot of really difficult kinds of texts. And I know that he and I would chat about what could be really helpful for her in the midst of those kinds of texts. So we certainly partnered together to give some support in terms of, first of all, empathizing with how scary that must be, not engaging right away and saying, no, God is not doing that to you, but really empathizing with how scary that is. So through the text kind of relationships, because there are a lot of those type of relationships in the church, but also inviting her to have a meal together and be able to join her in those scary moments that bring up so much fear for her. And then through the continued  growth in the relationship and the trust that we built with her, we would have opportunities to be able to ask her, can we give you a different perspective of who God is? And she was so willing to hear. And those were those moments where we’d share about God’s love for her and how He has rescued her from those deep fears and how He is with her right now because Christ is with her. And so we’ve had numerous opportunities to do that. And then maybe you can share about on your side of the practical ministry in the youth group. I know we talked about this earlier.

 

0:29:53.6 Danny Kwon: Yeah. I think eventually through ministering to her and giving her the hope of the gospel and her embracing it, was a form of relational discipleship. And as she grew, we invited her to join the student leadership team. And she eventually joined and she found some peer relationships there and she really flourished in her faith. All the while, she definitely still had some struggles. But just more generally, Jim, that idea of this peer-to-peer relationship, I think if parents are willing to share with their church and youth pastor, I think youth groups and youth ministries can really help also then do a peer-to-peer ministry where we walk alongside and partner students. Like a student who’s really depressed, if I know and the parents give me permission, I would find a more mature student in our youth group and say, hey, could you really care and minister and love each other? And then over that time, that would become a real peer friendship. And if the person was feeling down one week at youth group or maybe not showing up for church, they’d have a few friends that could minister to them. And I consider that a great fruit and success of just ministry for each other. Sounds so basic, but it was really fruitful when there’s that care and accountability for each other.

 

0:31:35.5 Jim Lovelady: It is interesting how the common denominator in all the things that you’re saying is there’s a community of people that want to come around a person, regardless of who they are, what they’ve done, what’s wrong with them, what what they think, regardless of who they think God is, regardless of what they think about God, we want to come around you and just love on you, be here for you, be a source of compassion, be a… It takes a village. It takes a compassionate village. It takes a village that’s willing to be messy. And it’s like, ideally, that’s what the church is. And then so now the church is just kind of sitting here going, okay, well, in best case scenario, we love this person. We’re loving this person as much as we can. Okay. Well, now what do we do? And that’s when you’re like, hey, read this book.

 

0:32:29.7 Monica Kim: There are a few things you could try and implement or try and tuck in along the lines of…

 

0:32:36.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:32:37.3 Danny Kwon: I mean, maybe that’s why I was a youth pastor so long. I really believe in God using students to love other students and how much they can do for each other in compassionate care. And again, Monica was saying, churches might feel overwhelmed, the youth pastor might be overwhelmed. But just coaching a student to be a friend and a partner and peer-to-peer and grow in that is, I think it’s powerful and it’s not super difficult. It’s just a matter of keeping care and accountability to the student who’s doing it.

 

0:33:15.1 Jim Lovelady: Well, I don’t know. I mean, loving other people is hard for me.

 

0:33:18.4 Danny Kwon: Yeah. But for teens, there’s such a natural inclination to it.

 

0:33:22.0 Monica Kim: Yeah. That’s at the stage where they’re wanting to build more connection, even though they feel really alone or awkward. A lot of teenagers wanted it so much at that time.

 

0:33:37.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:33:38.2 Monica Kim: So it’s, yeah, trying to foster that desire for connecting with their peers.

 

0:33:42.7 Jim Lovelady: I’m a huge Beatles fan. So my children have been raised on all the Beatles albums. And you know, all you need is love.

 

0:33:53.3 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:33:53.6 Jim Lovelady: But I always tell them, figure out a way of singing it. All you need is to love.

 

0:33:58.8 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:33:59.5 Jim Lovelady: All you need is to love. It doesn’t have quite the same ring. I’m not telling Paul what he should do. But the biblical perspective is really all you need is to love. And you’re going to discover a desperation because loving people is hard, but you’re also going to discover a joy that you’ve never…

 

0:34:18.8 Monica Kim: Amen.

 

0:34:19.0 Danny Kwon: Amen.

 

0:34:19.7 Jim Lovelady: You’ve never understood. And that’s part of what you’re talking about in terms of helping teenagers learn how they are sent to love others. Wherever you are, you’re sent to love others. You mentioned a lot of these exercises and I noticed the rhythm of your book is, at the end of every chapter is, similar exercises that are like gospel. So talk to me about how you take this, take anxiety, take loneliness, take eating disorder, take any one of those things, and you apply it. The rhythm of the book is you apply the gospel to it with some sort of story of like, is it the anxiety one of where you go to the story of Jesus calming the storm? And then from there there’s some very practical exercises. So walk me through that.

 

0:35:03.6 Monica Kim: Yeah. A lot of these exercises aren’t new, let’s say. Commonly kind of circling around. Some of them are commonly circling around in terms of, in secular psychology. But by common grace, it really helps, but it really focuses in on you having to do the work yourself or it’s based upon you managing your own self. And it does meet the necessary ways to, let’s say if you’re anxious, how important it is to manage that anxious reaction versus putting it away or dismissing it or letting it overwhelm you and then just doing things that are anxiously done. So that’s good. At the same time though, it really lacks then what will actually give you lasting or deeper hope, which is Jesus who says He can calm the storm. We’re not going to be able to calm it perfectly. But when we trust in Jesus who calmed the storm, who says with a word, be calm, and it is calmed, that we dig deeper in our inabilities and know that He brings that deep calm because of who He is. And that’s one example of how to continue to dig deeper into what is unknown for a lot of folks who do not have the eyes to see that need it, but those who have been given eyes to see that there’s something even greater and more powerful than you simply managing it with some really good encouraging responses like, you can do it. Those are all okay. Different mantras they say or sayings that they put on their own mirror when they look at themselves. Today is going to be a great day. You got all things, you can do it.

 

0:37:15.0 Jim Lovelady: Carpe Diem.

 

0:37:15.8 Monica Kim: Right. Sure. Sure.

 

0:37:17.9 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah. Whatever.

 

0:37:19.0 Monica Kim: I mean, we get inspired.

 

0:37:20.0 Jim Lovelady: I like the posters of de-inspiration, like the eagle was swooping down over the squirrel and it’s something else, so sarcasm after that word.

 

0:37:29.7 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:37:29.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s where my mind goes.

 

0:37:31.4 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:37:31.8 Jim Lovelady: Not to the inspirational ones.

 

0:37:33.5 Monica Kim: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s where our minds generally go.

 

0:37:38.3 Jim Lovelady: Also?

 

0:37:38.9 Monica Kim: Right. And so those are the ways in which our minds do get kind of caught up. And how do we not just depend on, we can do it and get inspired by a good feeling, but really be able to dig more deeply into the eternal gospel.

 

0:38:00.5 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:38:02.2 Jim Lovelady: Okay. So one of the things that I noticed as I was looking through each chapter, the rhythm of this of the leaves that you… Talk about the leaves one.

 

0:38:10.9 Monica Kim: Right. So the leaves one, the way we struggle…

 

0:38:13.4 Jim Lovelady: This is an exercise.

 

0:38:14.6 Monica Kim: Yeah. It’s an exercise where you are using the leaves and river imagery because that can be a little bit more of an accessible way for teenagers to think in images and connect with something that is calm and truthful, which is that Jesus is the river of life. And also, when we pray or when we have thoughts, they’re not just going to some abyss and being let go. It’s actually to the one who can do all things for good. And so the leaves exercise is about connecting to all of these thoughts that we’re bombarded by. It could be because you’re anxious. It could be because you have trauma. It could be because you have addiction struggles and you’re just thinking about the next drink or the next kind of when you will feel good about that. And that’s who we are in our brokenness. We get really engulfed and bombarded in our minds. We get distorted. Being able to then bring those thoughts to the Lord by using the practice of putting it on a leaf and imagining it flowing to Jesus, who takes care of it. So that it’s practicing being able to let the thoughts go to Him rather than getting overwhelmed by the thoughts and then following those thoughts and feelings and then continuing to feel anxious.

 

0:39:45.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And that’s one of the exercises. There are a number of exercises. What I realized is that all of these are moving me toward prayer.

 

0:39:54.5 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:39:54.9 Jim Lovelady: And they’re essentially in a very, maybe subversive way. This becomes a handbook for prayer.

 

0:40:01.9 Monica Kim: It is. Yeah.

 

0:40:02.6 Jim Lovelady: And I love that about… The breathing exercise, I’ve been doing it. I did it… Well, I don’t know. Earlier today, I did the four, seven, eight. And it’s like those things push me toward prayer. All and every… The theme of every chapter is, hey, don’t forget, you’re not alone. And that’s basically what the church is saying. We come around you and say, you’re not alone. And touch, touch us. We’ll hug you. We’re going to talk to you to remind you that you’re not alone. But now when you’re in the middle of a panic attack, here’s some exercises. When you’re struggling with an eating disorder, here’s some things that you can do that are actually, before the face of God, this exercise that’s not, like you said, it’s not a new exercise, but when we reframe it so that the creator of the universe is actually kind of guiding it, we’re brought back into prayer and fellowship with Him. I love that.

 

0:41:04.7 Danny Kwon: And the other thing as a parent or as a pastor, I found that doing these with my own children or with teenagers, it also, there’s an element of growing in our relationship with them as we do this and the relational discipleship component, because we’re in it together, really grows through these. So, it’s not just arbitrary things that we’re helping as a parent or teenager or youth leader or church leader, but we’re growing in our relational dynamic for the sake of discipleship and loving each other. Yeah.

 

0:41:44.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

 

0:41:44.5 Monica Kim: With that, just adding to that, when one is struggling, you don’t want to say, well, let me teach you what the Bible says in terms of discipleship.

 

0:41:54.2 Jim Lovelady: Great.

 

0:41:55.5 Monica Kim: But you also don’t want to use the exercises in that way too. Well, here’s an exercise that I want to teach you to really know Jesus more. You’re saying, and I like what you’re saying, it’s like this joining together in a relationship. We’re going to do this together. And would you like to try this out and walk alongside them as they work through some of the exercises?

 

0:42:19.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s great. Okay. So maybe going back to the overarching themes, this question is kind of like big picture question where you tag on your hopes and longings that you’ve submitted to the Lord. Like you pressed send, and you sent it to your publisher with a prayer of like, Lord, let this be a blessing to teens. Let this be a blessing to their parents. Let this be a blessing to the church. Let this be a blessing to the secular psychology community. Let this be a blessing to all the people that engage with it. Talk to me about how you want the grace of God to just permeate all of these things and what that looks like in your imagination as this goes out to folks.

 

0:43:04.9 Monica Kim: That’s a great question. Yeah.

 

0:43:07.2 Danny Kwon: Well, in the final chapter, I do write about the scars of Jesus and Thomas when he touches them. And of course, the scars symbolize Christ’s suffering and His death on the cross for us, but He’s also the resurrected Lord. And that shows us that in Christ we are offered a new identity in Christ, that we have the gospel hope of transformation and resurrection. And I always hope that mental health and struggles, it’s hard. It’s hard for parents dealing with it in their own child. And my always big hope is that they would not let their scars, their hurts and pains of their mental health define them, but they would see the bigger picture of the resurrected Lord and their identity and transformation in Him. So, it takes time and even we as parents who walked through with our teenager, it takes a lot of hope and courage and difficulty too. But that would be my ultimate hope that the teens themselves, the parents and churches would be able to help teens find their greater identity, not to be defined by their mental health. Because a lot of times it will be with you your whole life. It could be a struggle that could be prevalent in your continuing journey, but how do you find your greater identity in the resurrected Lord and our new identity in Christ. Yeah.

 

0:45:05.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Jesus has scars.

 

0:45:08.1 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:45:08.5 Jim Lovelady: Post resurrection, He has scars. I love that you close the book that way because the suffering that we are all, we all have our own… Everyone has got their own suffering. Everyone has got their own scars. Everyone has got their own wounds. And seems like when the Lord returns and He brings us into glory, we’re still going to have those scars. Jesus, the resurrected Savior, the resurrected human, He had scars. He still had a scar. Touch me. Touch my wounds. But we are not going to be identified by those. I love how you said that because it’s like, I want so badly to find my identity in this thing that is just so right in my face. Whatever the struggle is, that’s me. And Jesus, He doesn’t say I am my wounds. He says touch my wounds, acknowledging them, but actually moving, moving past those into a greater redemption that is actually probably more mysterious than I realized. I think this is going to be like when we get to heaven, I’m going to want to touch His wounds.

 

0:46:21.7 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:46:22.1 Jim Lovelady: And He’s going to want to… I imagine that grace His grace is so beautiful that He’s going to be like, let me touch your wounds. And I’ve been with you in every one of those. I love that you ended the book with that story. That’s awesome.

 

0:46:38.6 Danny Kwon: Yeah.

 

0:46:38.9 Monica Kim: Yeah. I think added to that, we certainly wrestled while we were writing the book to not desire for it to be like a simple answer to struggles and suffering and hardship, but to be able to really sit in the midst of the complexity of it and to know Jesus in it over and over again. And I suppose, again, added to what you’re saying, we do really hope that Christ is glorified in the midst of the suffering, in the midst of families, amidst the church and the brokenness, because He knows what that is all about.

 

0:47:24.2 Jim Lovelady: He knows and He loves us and He’s always with us. And every one of these… Okay. I just want to read off real quickly. So anxiety and stress, depression, body image issues, eating disorders, substance use issues, trauma, schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal ideation, excessive screen use. And then the last chapter is resting in a new identity. It’s like wrapping all of these things up. But in all of these things, Jesus is not surprised. He knows all of these things. This is His grace. He knows all these things. He sees all these things. He’s with us. We’re not alone. And I think that that was my takeaway that I appreciate so much about what you all have written, that overwhelming reminder. Take a deep breath. The Lord is with you.

 

0:48:16.2 Monica Kim: Yeah. He breathed that life in you.

 

0:48:20.8 Jim Lovelady: So of course.

 

0:48:21.8 Monica Kim: Yeah.

 

0:48:23.5 Jim Lovelady: That’s so good.

 

0:48:24.3 Monica Kim: I appreciate having this conversation. I think it brought us to really share a little bit more of the heart of where we come to with the Lord.

 

0:48:33.8 Danny Kwon: Yeah. I appreciate it too.

 

0:48:38.1 Monica Kim: I’m feeling a little emotional right now because just thinking about all those teenagers and families who struggled, and our deepest hope is that they would know Jesus because He knows them so well.

 

0:48:51.0 Danny Kwon: Actually, in the last chapter, I write about a family who in 1995, their daughter was diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia, and she’s still not better. And I see them at church every week, and sometimes it’s hard for me to see them, but they try to find their hope in the gospel. And I always feel a little awkward seeing them, but they’re very warm and loving and they’ve known… We’ve been to the hospital and walked with their daughter through college and she tried to go to Westminster and had a lot of episodes. And yeah, it’s not always clean and easy. But thank you for reminding us today too. You ministered to us. I think you helped to think of an angle today that I really appreciate.

 

0:49:49.5 Jim Lovelady: What’s that angle?

 

0:49:50.5 Danny Kwon: Not just this last story, but the story of the teenagers and what we ultimately see, the hope we want to see for them. A lot of times we talk about the parents and pastors and youth leaders and things like that, but it really is ultimately about the teenagers. And I think when you emailed us, for me, it really got me thinking, oh, yeah, that’s what the book is ultimately for.

 

0:50:16.7 Jim Lovelady: That’s what it’s about.

 

0:50:16.8 Monica Kim: They would be able to, in some sense, live out for the Kingdom. Is that what you’re saying?

 

0:50:22.3 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:50:24.2 Monica Kim: Yeah. And that missional kind of response.

 

0:50:26.3 Danny Kwon: I think it had me reflect on, like you asked a question today, a lot of the “fruitful,” successful stories of, some of them still struggle, but they’re living in the gospel with hope and trying their best. And even our own son, he still has some struggles with his mental health, but he’s going to church and going to small group and part of discipleship and so.

 

0:50:57.4 Jim Lovelady: It’s not that we’re doing Kingdom ministry in spite of eating disorders and anxiety, it’s in the midst.

 

0:51:04.4 Monica Kim: In the midst of it.

 

0:51:05.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. And that’s where God’s Kingdom is coming to fruition. That’s where people are experiencing God’s grace. I mean, it’s called Grace of the Fray.

 

0:51:17.0 Danny Kwon: Exactly. Yeah.

 

0:51:17.7 Jim Lovelady: Because that’s rough. And we often think, oh, if I could just get over my anxiety, I could be used by God. And it’s like, no, we got to change that perspective. It’s, Lord Jesus, be with me here and show me your grace. And then the fruit of that is so mysterious. People around you go, look at the Lord moving. And we’re always like, I don’t know, I’m just a mess. Look at my scars. It’s like, no, no, the Kingdom of God is coming forth.

 

0:51:47.4 Danny Kwon: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:51:48.0 Monica Kim: We did write one piece in there where because of that, you can have anxiety and you can go out and love others.

 

0:51:52.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s exactly…

 

0:52:00.1 Monica Kim: You can be depressed and you can get up in the morning and walk out of your bedroom.

 

0:52:06.9 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:52:07.5 Danny Kwon: True.

 

0:52:07.9 Monica Kim: Because of the hope.

 

0:52:08.7 Jim Lovelady: Well, thank you, my friends. Thank you so much.

 

0:52:11.8 Monica Kim: Yeah. Thank you.

 

0:52:11.9 Danny Kwon: Thank you.

 

0:52:19.5 Jim Lovelady: If you resonate with the struggle of mental health, I want you to know that the Lord is with you. The Lord sees you and He knows your suffering. You are deeply loved. He knows you, and you are not alone. And in fact, the Lord calls you on mission to love. All you need is to love. Can you fathom how mysterious it is that the Lord calls broken people on mission? Even you. He sends you, but He goes with you as your refuge and strength. So maybe you need to repent of how you’ve managed life by your own strength. And maybe you need to repent of how you found refuge in your own accomplishments, your own reputation, and your own identity. The beauty of repentance is that when you give up those things, only then can you truly experience how God Himself is your refuge and strength, a very present help in the troubles of life on mission in His Kingdom. Danny and Monica’s book 𝘛𝘦𝘦𝘯𝘢𝘨𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘔𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘏𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘵𝘩: 𝘈 𝘏𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘣𝘰𝘰𝘬 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘗𝘢𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘴, 𝘗𝘢𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘩 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴 is a super, it’s an incredible resource. Of course I want to commend this book to anyone who wants to come alongside the teenagers that they love. I think it really will give practical tools for helping teens experience the Lord as their refuge and strength. I’ll leave a link for that in the show notes as well as some links to a couple of blog posts on how to do parenting with grace. And we have a lot of resources on the topic of parenting and teens and grace. So go to serge.org and start exploring. And if you found this episode helpful, please share it, go to Serge’s YouTube page and subscribe to our channel. You can watch the podcasts, but there is so much more there for you to experience the missions world of Serge. Now, I can’t escape this impression that I’ve gotten from my conversation with Danny and Monica about the importance of coming alongside folks who are struggling. In this case, it’s the struggle of mental health in teens, but it doesn’t matter what the struggle is. You’re called to come alongside people. The call of the church is to come alongside people. Just as God is our refuge and strength, we are called to be a refuge and strength through the power and presence of Christ in us. Do you understand how wild that is that the Lord wants to be present to someone through you, no matter how messed up you are, no matter how broken you are, no matter what your struggle is. And that’s the dynamic of the Christian life. As you go, may you find the Lord to be your only true refuge and strength. May He work through you to show His strength in your weakness. And of course, go with this blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you and make His face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you, turn His bright eyes to you and give you His peace. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One God, life everlasting. Amen.

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