Restoring Hope: The Impact of Discipleship for Cultural Transformation

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Welcome to Grace at the Fray, a podcast that explores the many dimensions of God’s grace that we find at the frayed edges of life. Come explore how God’s grace works to renew your life and send you on mission in His kingdom.

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0:00:23.9 Jim Lovelady: Hello beloved, welcome to Grace at the Fray. When it comes to talking with others about what God has done in your life, do you think you have a good testimony? Do you envy the folks who used to be truly terrible people, addicts or thieves or whatever, and how their testimony of coming to Christ is vivid and exciting and seemingly more miraculous than your testimony? If you feel like your testimony, the story of what Jesus has done in your life, isn’t that interesting, this episode is for you. It’s all about how the victory of God in Christ rescues and renews both moralistic do-gooders and rebellious individuals who then in turn begin to bring God’s rescue and renewal to their community. So today I want to take you to an interview I did on my last day in Kenya. Right after this, Alan, the videographer, and I, hopped in the car of our driver, Patrice. Shout out to Patrice for taking us all over Kenya, because if I had to [chuckle] drive, we’d probably be dead. But right after this interview, he drove us from Kijabe straight to the Nairobi airport. We had spent a couple of days in Kijabe, but I really wanted to make sure that I got to hang out with Geoffrey and Mary Ndivo. Geoffrey is the spiritual affairs manager at Kijabe Hospital, where he oversees the chaplains, and Mary is involved in non-profit work there in Kijabe where she disciples lots of people. A couple of years ago, Geoffrey and Mary went through Serge’s Mentored Sonship and Discipleship Lab programs, and I was really curious to get their impression of what it was like for them as Kenyans to go through these two programs, and I really wanted to hear what impact these had on their ministries in Kijabe. This episode is a great advertisement for our Mentored Sonship and Discipleship Lab programs. In short, Mentored Sonship is a one-on-one discipleship program designed to bring the gospel from mere head theology to heart action. And Discipleship Lab is all about learning how to help others do the same; to practically live out the gospel at a heart level. If you’ve taken the Sonship course, you will resonate with a lot of what they say, but they have a Kenyan perspective, it’s really cool. And it might feel like a refresher course for you. If you’ve never taken Sonship, I hope that the way Geoffrey and Mary talk about their humility and boldness in the way they do ministry really entices you. I’ve seen it over and over, and you’ll see it in this conversation, the way Sonship and Discipleship Lab courses get worked out in people’s lives enables a culture of grace that invites broken and messed up people to the table of fellowship. And look, Sonship is not the only way to push the gospel deeper into your life. The Spirit moves in many different ways. However, I know that you have a story of grace that’s worth telling, and every day is a new story of grace. Do you know how to tell that story? Do you know how to live that story so that it changes the world? All I can tell you is this, the Sonship course changed my life, and I know it will change yours. If you don’t believe me, just listen to Geoffrey and Mary’s testimony and how their personal renewal is leading to the renewal of their community.

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0:04:07.7 Jim Lovelady: Welcome to Grace at the Fray.

0:04:13.5 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah.

0:04:13.8 Mary Ndivo: Thank you.

0:04:15.9 Geoffrey Ndivo: Thank you.

0:04:16.4 Mary Ndivo: Thank you so much. Mary is my name, and I love the Lord as my personal savior. Back in 1988 is when I received Christ as Lord at the age of around 14 years, and I’ve enjoyed my walk with the Lord. Then after that, we met with Geoffrey at Christian University. He had come to study, I was working there in the library back then. Then after some time, we got married. So we are married with one son, he’s now turning 25 years. And we’re grateful, and we’ve been serving God in the church ministry and church organizations, and now we are here serving in Kijabe Hospital.

0:05:16.3 Jim Lovelady: Amen. And you met this guy in the library? 

0:05:19.9 Mary Ndivo: Yes. [chuckle]

0:05:20.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. And because I was a student librarian.

0:05:23.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh, okay. So you fell in love with the library? 

0:05:26.5 Geoffrey Ndivo: So we had a lot of interactions while she was working in the library. So I’m Geoffrey Ndivo. I grew up in a Christian family. Both my parents were leaders. My father is now late, but my mother is still with us and just has been leading until this year. It’s when she said now she has had enough of that, doing all sorts of things in the church. And so I normally say the gospel was not…, the word of God, not the gospel. The word of God was not anything new to me, it was always available. But deep within me, I knew. I knew I’m not… If you would ask me whether I’m a Christian, I would say yes. But if you ask me whether I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the answer obviously would have been no. And that one I knew. No doubt about that. And I even dreaded the idea of giving my life to Christ.

0:06:39.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You were afraid to give your life to Christ? 

0:06:39.5 Geoffrey Ndivo: I was afraid because I felt like I can’t survive. [laughter] In my little thinking, I was calculating, I think and thinking that if I give my life to Christ the following day, I will be out of it. And so it took long, even some of the things that happened in church, for as you grow, during the milestones, participating in everything right from a young boy in Sunday school to a teenager and a youth. I was very active, very active, but deep within me, I knew that there is a void and I don’t want anyone to come close to that, that’s for me to struggle with silently. But every time the sermon is done and an invitation is made, the pull was there. But again, as I said, I was afraid and would not… would just silence that and continue with life. And so I went through high school because that time we used to go to form four, which would be grade 12, and then another two years of high school, and then now go to college. After doing my form six, I got a job as an untrained teacher. We do that here. We used to do that, I don’t know whether it’s happening nowadays, that time there was a shortage of teachers. And that is the time when my life changed because now I had someone who would come to me at a personal level and we would discuss. That was someone we were teaching with who was born again, and now she would tell me more about the gospel and then answer all the questions that I had. And that is the time I gave my life to Christ and immediately sensed that the Lord was calling me to ministry full-time. And I made that decision, almost immediately, that I’m going to full-time ministry, although it took one and a half years before I went to a theological college, but I knew I was ready. And so I began preparing myself and my whole body and mind into that path. And so we’ve been in ministry for… going now to 27 years next year. Graduated in April… no, March, 1997. So I believe it’ll be 24 years… 27 years next year. Served, first of all in a university, assisting the university chaplain on a local arrangement, it was not official, for five years. Then went to our church, the African Inland Church, where I served for 10 years. And she has stayed in a non-government organization where we were for 14 months, one year and two months. And then now we’ve been in Kijabe since 2014.

0:10:05.4 Jim Lovelady: So almost a decade? 

0:10:06.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: Almost a decade, yeah.

0:10:08.7 Jim Lovelady: So what does life look like here in Kijabe? What has ministry looked like? 

0:10:12.1 Geoffrey Ndivo: It’s very challenging because the responsibility is heavy, because I’m the one who leads the spiritual wing of the hospital. It’s quite heavy a responsibility because that is the same as saying I’m the one who “determines the spiritual temperature of the hospital.” I have to make a lot of decisions, a lot of consultations, on what needs to be done about issues, especially nowadays when issues are emerging which are challenging the traditional Christian way of life. And people have to come to me and ask me, “What are we supposed to do when we get to this? How do you approach this?” And so it is a challenge, but it’s something that I enjoy.

0:11:03.3 Jim Lovelady: So the two of you went through the Sonship curriculum? 

0:11:05.4 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah.

0:11:09.0 Jim Lovelady: So tell me about what impact that had on your own personal life? 

0:11:11.3 Mary Ndivo: Sonship was like an eye opener for me because, yes, being a Christian and being as a believer for many years, there are so many things that I was struggling with. And at times I would feel if I do this, then I’m a good believer, if I don’t do this, then I’m a failed believer. And so comes the Sonship and works in my heart to open up that inner me, to show me that Christ is just enough for me. I don’t have to labor to please God. He is just enough for me and he embraces me just as I am. And I began to feel lighter and freed.

0:11:58.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. You were even doing this; like you were lighter. [laughter] I love it. I love it.

0:12:03.6 Mary Ndivo: Yes. I was delivered. And I’ve continued to be transformed. It’s like a continuous process each and every day. And just recently, I was going through an issue with someone and I was really hurt, deeply hurt by what they did and the effort I made even to see them and they blocked my door. They blocked…

0:12:29.5 Jim Lovelady: They didn’t want to see you? 

0:12:30.6 Mary Ndivo: They didn’t want to see me. And just one time at night, some voice told me, “How about forgiveness?” And I’m like, “Yeah, forgiveness.”

0:12:45.1 Jim Lovelady: Oh, yeah. That.

0:12:45.9 Mary Ndivo: They don’t have to do anything. They don’t have even to appreciate me, but I need to forgive them. And that, again, the burden lifted, I don’t feel the thing that I was feeling inside. When I see this person anymore, I begin to feel I need to love her more. And that voice has continued to speak to me. So I’m really happy that the gospel of repentance and forgiveness reached me and came my way because I don’t remember when we did that, but it is a number of years back, but it rings in my head every time, every day. And not only for me, but even the people around me. I begin to relate with people like him well, the people within my circle, I begin to relate… I’ve begun to relate with them well. And so I’m a new person, in a nutshell.

0:13:44.8 Jim Lovelady: That’s…

0:13:45.4 Mary Ndivo: I am renewed.

0:13:46.6 Jim Lovelady: That’s wonderful. [laughter] What a story. Yeah. How about you? So it was a number of years ago? 

0:13:53.0 Geoffrey Ndivo: Not many…

0:13:53.8 Mary Ndivo: Not very many.

0:13:54.4 Geoffrey Ndivo: I think it was… We did it in 2020, if I’m not wrong. But yeah, that’s quite something. But initially we had introduced The Gospel Centered Life to our staff, because as I said, we are struggling with something and we want to accommodate everyone because I am a firm believer that it is Christ who saves and it is Christ who helps people live the Christian life. And one of the stories I like is the way he dealt with a woman who was caught in adultery. And I remember a while ago reading about that and even thinking about how can we kill this culture of stone throwing? But it wasn’t as clear as it was when now I began doing Sonship and finally the Discipleship Lab journey. Just to know all that what I struggle with is actually something that someone has thought about and come up with a process that can affirm that. And so, we were doing The Gospel Centered Life with that in mind, that we want people to not just be Christians who do, because that’s very common here. People want to sort of bribe God.

0:15:48.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:15:49.7 Geoffrey Ndivo: And do good things so that they can be accepted. And so we introduced that as a way of telling people, “Hey, it’s not so much about what you’ve done, but what he has done for you. And yours is just to believe and accept the offer and the gift that he has given you.” And so, going through Sonship, first of all, again, just as she has said, opened my eyes into that and even challenged me to think more and think about how best then can we help people. And it was in that process where even in the hospital, we came up with a restoration policy, which I championed together with the executive director then. Rather than condemning, we began thinking about accommodating and even helping this person come out of the mess that they are in. And so it is the same time when we are doing this, when now I’m doing Sonship. And so it made my life easy. I even borrowed heavily from Sonship, even in the conversations that we had as we came up with that policy, that it is not about condemning people because they’ve sinned, but first of all, forgiving them.

0:17:18.6 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:17:21.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: And then helping them have a better view of Christ and the cross rather than shrinking the cross, because I think that’s what we were doing initially.

0:17:32.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:17:32.2 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. It’s what we do, not what Christ has done. And then we don’t appreciate what Christ has done if I don’t behave in a certain way that someone else thinks. In that case, us as the leaders, there’s the way we think you should behave. If you are not walking like this, then you are not walking in righteousness. And therefore go, we don’t need you here.

0:18:00.8 Jim Lovelady: I love the language you used was the gospel renewed me. And you didn’t use this word, but the concept that you’re…

0:18:10.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: It is the same, yeah.

0:18:10.7 Jim Lovelady: Talking about is restored; we are restoring people, we are forgiving them and then we’re restoring them so that the gospel works to renew our hearts and restore a community. So that’s where grace abounds. That’s wonderful. What was one of the most impactful things for you personally? It helped in your leadership, but what was something that clicked for you? 

0:18:42.0 Geoffrey Ndivo: Just that aspect of being a son, and even if it is a daughter, also becoming a son, and knowing that as a son, I am secure. I’m secure in Christ. I may wander, I may sink, but there is forgiveness. It’s forgiveness for me that makes me feel more confident as a Christian. Remember I said that I shunned the aspect of becoming a Christian because I was afraid of failure. And I wouldn’t say that that has been done away with completely, I still believe I’m some work in progress.

0:19:34.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Amen. That’ll preach. [laughter] Come on.

0:19:37.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: And even now the concept of that my heart is a factory of idols.

0:19:42.0 Jim Lovelady: Right.

0:19:42.9 Geoffrey Ndivo: And then let me just talk about both Sonship and Discipleship Lab.

0:19:48.0 Jim Lovelady: Sure.

0:19:48.2 Geoffrey Ndivo: Giving me an opportunity to look at me and realize this is actually the real me…

0:19:55.8 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. There you go.

0:19:56.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: And that there are things that I struggle with, which I didn’t know were a problem. There are things that I do which make my wife and our son mad at me. And I am there… I remember as we were going through, I think the Discipleship, I was saying sometimes… Was it Discipleship or was that Sonship? There are times when she tells me, “Remove your shoes.” And I’m like, “No, I also wash the house. So what’s the problem?”

[laughter]

0:20:24.6 Jim Lovelady: What’s the problem? So you also…

0:20:25.4 Geoffrey Ndivo: If it will be dirty, I will wash it. I’ll help clean the house. So what’s the…

0:20:32.5 Jim Lovelady: Exactly.

0:20:33.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: What’s the big deal? But now realizing I’m actually struggling with some bit of control, and that now I need to take that control to the cross and release it and have Christ have his way in my life. And therefore, better relationships, a little bit more accommodating and forgiving. I always thought I was very accommodative and long suffering and someone who doesn’t condemn people. I felt like I had a big heart until I did Sonship and realized that can also become an idol.

[laughter]

0:21:20.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:21:22.8 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah.

0:21:23.1 Jim Lovelady: So what has Discipleship Lab and Sonship looked like for you in the community? The people that you’re ministering with and into, how have they received that? I think you mentioned a little bit that the people around you have noticed a change in you, but as you’re unpacking these ideas, how are they received? Because you’re pushing up against the traditional Christian way of thinking about things, which is… The language that we use is a legalistic Christianity. So talk to me about how people have received this? 

0:22:00.8 Mary Ndivo: When we began with Sonship, it was more of working within me. But then Discipleship Lab came and it began to expand the circle that it’s like this gospel of truth within me I have now to share it with the people within me and the community around me. I am not really directly working in the hospital; I used to but I left. But even with that, there are people that just come across… I come across. Like I have a ladies fellowship that I lead just within here in Kijabe and I am also in the worship team in the church.

0:22:52.5 Jim Lovelady: Oh, yeah? 

0:22:52.7 Mary Ndivo: Yes. And I have realized that I didn’t know this, but people look up to me for help and others will come directly for help. But then as I interact with these ladies and the young guys that we are with in the worship team, I begin to realize some of the areas that they need someone to come alongside them. And for that, I’ve come to become confident, I’ve come to realize that many things that I went through in Discipleship Lab and Sonship, a lot of people around me really need help with. They are struggling with forgiveness, they are struggling with their own view of what salvation is all about. And coming along with one-on-one people, I’ve seen change, and they come to me and tell me, “Thank you. What you did in my life, Christ has continued to show, to manifest in a big way.” And that is when I realized Sonship has really done a lot in my life and the lives of the people around me. And so I have this one example of a young guy that I work with. And this came after we did Discipleship and some of the many examples that we were dealing with. Like I remember the case studies of someone who is interested in a same sex relationship, we did that. And so…

0:24:30.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. The Discipleship Lab…

0:24:32.8 Mary Ndivo: Yes.

0:24:33.2 Jim Lovelady: Case studies have all sorts of…

0:24:34.7 Mary Ndivo: Yes. So we have this young guy who…

0:24:39.2 Geoffrey Ndivo: Including the stories that our cohort was sharing, the members of the cohort.

0:24:43.8 Mary Ndivo: Yes.

0:24:43.9 Geoffrey Ndivo: I remember.

0:24:44.0 Mary Ndivo: And so we have this young guy, he has been struggling with anger. He was a former street person, and so life was not easy for him. But there is this area that he has really anger issues. And sometimes he’s okay, other times he’s just a totally different person.

0:25:08.7 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:25:09.6 Mary Ndivo: And so everyone in the organization was really blocking him. And he began to feel alone and not really loved. And by God’s grace, I began talking with this young man, just about normal things and just wanting to know, “How are you? How are you doing?” And that aspect made him feel loved and begin to see there is Christ even after I’ve failed in life in so many different ways. And he came back and told me, “Mary, thank you. You’ve helped me see myself in a different way that I never thought I would be a better person in life.” And he asked me, “Please continue to pray with me and continue talking with me.” And I realized, “Oh, so the gospel of truth actually breaks, and breaks even the unwanted in the society and they begin to feel loved.” And so I’m still working with him, and just this week I just wanted to begin to engage him one-on-one on how does he deal with the anger issue in him? Initially I wouldn’t really confront him because I know he used to take drugs and all that, and so I’m scared of him. I don’t know what he would do. And he actually can really be nasty with people when he is angry.

[laughter]

0:26:49.1 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. There’s a good reason why people are holding him at bay.

0:26:53.4 Mary Ndivo: Yes. I’m no longer feeling like I’m afraid of him, but I want to walk alongside him without judging him and without giving him a label. I know he’s a loved son of God and God wants him just as he is, but transform him and the truth of the gospel to continue transforming him. And so a lot has happened in me and the people around me. And initially I would feel not confident, I would feel I don’t want to do this, but after that, the confidence and to know that it’s not just me who is doing this, it’s Christ in me. Whether I fail or not fail, Christ will be glorified.

0:27:42.4 Jim Lovelady: That’s right.

0:27:43.4 Mary Ndivo: Yeah. So each day I face with confidence, and that is because Discipleship Lab are shaped and equipped me. And you know, the material is like something that you would refer over and over again. And every time I look at it, it’s like I’ve never read this. [laughter] It is really good. So the material is, again, very relevant to me in all circles. Whether in church, whether just in the community, whether in my own family, it is relevant for me.

0:28:20.3 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. That’s beautiful; the way that the gospel freed you to face your own fears and then to engage in this person, who is a scary person, in love and then the way that he responded with receiving that love. It’s a great story. Thank you.

0:28:40.8 Geoffrey Ndivo: For me it is the whole idea of coming alongside others and not coming down on them. Being in a position of leadership that determines a lot of things, determining whether this one will be employed or not, and determining what we do with this one has been caught doing A, B, C, D, which is not accommodated in the organization, and just now the normal issues that people struggle with as human beings, struggling with a past that is nasty. And so, first of all, it would be if I am the one who is doing it, if someone comes to me and tells me, “I have this issue, how can I be helped?” And it go to that point after the restoration policy where now people are encouraging one another: “You’ve messed?” “Yeah.” “Just go and talk to Reverend Ndivo, he will help you.” And so when people come, they are afraid because they know where we are coming from and they are not confident to come and face us. And so when that person comes, I’m willing to listen to them and assure them that we can deal with why did we find ourselves here. But even as we deal with that, if you can remember a time when you invited Christ in your life, you need that assurance that the relationship is there, you’re still a child of God, it’s only that the fellowship is broken and therefore we can now work on…

0:30:46.5 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. We start with you are a child of God, not you messed up.

0:30:51.4 Geoffrey Ndivo: You messed up. Yeah. You were a child of God, and we can work on the relationship, the fellowship with Christ presently. And then now again in leadership where now I’m helping members of my team and others in how to deal with people who are faced with certain issues, just giving direction on what needs to be done, or, This one is doing this, please approach it like this. Let’s do A, B, C, D, let’s not do this.” So that we are helping people rather than killing them.

0:31:35.8 Jim Lovelady: Right. They have been doing things that are ruining their lives. And the traditional Christian way, the legalistic way of doing things would be to let them ruin their lives And actually push them toward that. But now it’s, “No, let’s,” like I said earlier, “Let’s renew and restore.”

0:31:58.5 Geoffrey Ndivo: And restore. Yeah. See some of the things that we are struggling with, some of which happened many years ago, and which we are bringing in our present life and relationships, which is making things even worse. How can Christ help us? How do we bring in the cross into that and allow Christ to make us what we are supposed to be. And not necessarily my own effort, but the finished work of Christ on the cross.

0:32:33.5 Jim Lovelady: So you’ve been overseeing the chaplains. How many chaplains are there? 

0:32:37.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: Currently we are 10, so I’m overseeing nine of them.

0:32:43.2 Jim Lovelady: Okay. Are they very receptive to these ideas? Is there a building of a momentum where we are leaning toward, “No, first you are a child of God. Then let’s work through all the other stuff.”

0:32:56.0 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah, of course. But that does not mean that you’ll not face resistance.

0:33:02.0 Jim Lovelady: Oh, yeah. It’s in my own heart.

[laughter]

0:33:04.5 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. But a majority of them are into that. And so even as we help others and think about what needs to be done, the resistance is very minimal.

0:33:18.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s wonderful. So speaking as longtime ministry leaders, 27 years of ministry, what do you see… What is your hope for the future of Kenya, for the gospel to move into Kenya in these ways and change things? Do you have a vision for that? What does that hope look like? 

0:33:43.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: Someone, one of the theologians in Africa, said that the church in Africa is one mile wide, but one inch deep.

0:33:51.2 Jim Lovelady: Oh, interesting.

0:33:51.9 Geoffrey Ndivo: A church that is one mile everywhere, notoriously religious, and you walk anywhere, even in a political rally, and we are talking about Christ and we are believers. But when you look at what is happening, it contradicts what we are saying. You get to church and you listen to people and you know there’s something that is wrong. And so we’ve been struggling with how can we be part of the transformation that is required, now that we know the gospel transforms from within and can propel us when we talk about mission, can propel us to regions beyond where we are. We have people, we will walk with them, we’ll help them. We’ll be used by God, we believe, to snatch some out of where they are stuck and probably even give someone a push to get somewhere, but out there. Think about some of the places where we have served or where we come from. And you see pastors who are struggling, they are struggling with bitterness, they are struggling with unforgiveness and all manner of issues and asking, “Those are my colleagues, those are my associates. How can I help?” Last Sunday, I was talking to our local church pastor here, just about how we can help boys because that’s one place where we have failed as a church, to work with the boys. There are so many programs for girls, a lot of effort, but for the boys…

0:35:48.3 Jim Lovelady: Interesting.

0:35:49.7 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. And these boys tomorrow will be the men.

0:35:52.1 Jim Lovelady: Right. What are some of your thoughts? 

0:35:57.1 Mary Ndivo: In line of what Geoffrey has just said, it’s true, many people are just right in church, but the depth of how much they’ve grown into the gospel is very thin. And I think of many times as we interact with Marc, we would tell Marc that how we wish what we are learning would be multiplied to the people that we know. Then the church here in Kijabe, here in Kenya and here in Africa, would then be a totally different place for people to be in. And so, yes, people need the gospel to transform them and grow them into knowing Christ more. And so this Discipleship, the way it is tailored in a way, for one, it’s made simple. It’s made not really simple in the way it is structured, but simple to understand. Even someone who has not gone into a theological school, you really understand the things very, very well. And so it’s structured in a way that anybody in this society, whether they’ve gone to school or not, they can grasp what it is all about. And so there is really a major need regardless of whether one is a pastor, a pastor’s wife, or just an ordinary church person, the Discipleship Lab program is ideal for people within us, around us.

0:37:34.4 Jim Lovelady: Wow.

0:37:36.4 Mary Ndivo: And so it’s a question that we ask ourselves: “How do we begin? Where do we… How do we go about it?” But I know we are doing it even in a small way. It is just that probably, moving forward, we will have a nice structured way of just taking people through the program so that they can benefit just like we’ve benefited and as well help them to benefit so that they can change other lives around them and within the community.

0:38:07.2 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. This is very encouraging to me. I have one last question. Speaking as Kenyans, and you look at America and the American church, what would you say is the greatest need for the American church regarding the gospel.

0:38:29.0 Geoffrey Ndivo: We may not know much about the American church, apart from probably just a few interactions that we have with a few of probably some missionaries who come here and sometimes what we read, which may not necessarily be the real picture.

[laughter]

0:38:54.2 Jim Lovelady: True. I’m still curious about your perspective though.

0:39:00.2 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. But I think one of the things I like about the American church is that now that the world is opening… Before COVID, we never used to know exactly what is happening, but now after COVID, and this issue of online church and all that, we are able to attend church. Even here, you just fumble on one and you say, “This is a nice guy, I want to be listening to this guy.” So we are now realizing that this is the way they do things and this is what happens. And so one of the things I like is the depth of the teachings of the word of God. I think that looks like in most cases, especially in some of the churches that I’ve talked about, it’s very solid. And some of these churches are old churches, so they’ve maintained that for many years, something that sometimes we lack here. Now, having said that, I think the Africans, we are very relational, very, very, very relational, such that when it comes to fellowship, it’s very easy to make fellowship very genuine, because we are a community. I think that’s one thing, we are community, where when you are suffering, it is easy for me to suffer with you, when you are rejoicing, it’s easy. And I think I’m saying that remembering that when God says the church is like a family…

0:40:49.4 Jim Lovelady: Yeah. Connected.

0:40:50.3 Geoffrey Ndivo: That can be exemplified from the African church. So that aspect of we are a family, we are there for one another, we care for one another. And so when you bring in the concept of discipleship where we are coming alongside one another, it is not a struggle. When people grasp that, it can be very easy to walk with those that are hurting and now bring in Sonship that it is not necessarily what I give or do when something is happening, but what Christ has done for all of us.

0:41:34.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:41:34.8 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah.

0:41:34.9 Mary Ndivo: A lot of communities within Kenya, a majority of them, you find poverty levels and just lack of the basic things. It’s really a struggle for many families. And so you find people going out of their way just to share with them. They may not have a lot, but they will share a meal with them, whether they’re related or not. And so that is an aspect that I really… It’s really admirable that people share the little that they have with the people that are suffering around them. And there are many, and so probably I don’t know whether people in the American set up really lack food, [chuckle] I don’t know, but I doubt. I guess maybe many people are able to access food without strain, and so they really are well-to-do, they have everything they need in life. And so maybe having relations would help them to share with the other people around them in a nice way. But then you can’t hear if you don’t relate. How would you even know that people around you are suffering if you’re not relating? So probably the social aspect I guess maybe in the American setup maybe really wanting, I don’t know, as compared to us here in Africa. We really can be social people even without nothing.

0:43:00.9 Jim Lovelady: That’s wonderful.

0:43:03.8 Geoffrey Ndivo: And saying that, talking about that, in one of the churches that I was… I was listening to someone just this week and they were talking about we got into debt and this debt has been there for 23 years. We’ve been paying, and then it was a big announcement, even three pastors stood in front and said, “Next week we are going to be out of debt.” And I thought about that. When it comes to purchasing pieces of land for church buildings and all that, you rarely find an African, a Kenyan church going into debt to do that, you pull resources, you bring the little that you have, he brings the little that he has, she brings, I also bring. It can still take the 23 years, [laughter] but once we are done, no one will be talking about I am owed or I owe or anything.

0:44:09.7 Jim Lovelady: Yeah.

0:44:09.9 Geoffrey Ndivo: And although now we are getting there where we are beginning to… Probably because we want to do things quickly, now you say, “Let’s take some money. Let’s commit. Let’s… Again, things are changing, let’s just commit and pay. Even if it takes us 10 years to pay, we’ll just commit and do that.” But initially it was pool resources, bring the little that you have, let’s do what is supposed to be done. And then since we have time, some of the things, we even volunteer our time, instead of having to pay a fundi, a mason and a carpenter, “Do this,” a carpenter just comes and says, “I have no money, but I have my skill, and so I’m going to volunteer.” That doesn’t mean that the church in the US is not generous, I think Africa we are recipients and beneficiaries of the generosity of the church in the US. I couldn’t pay school fees, someone gave, I didn’t even know them, I don’t know them, and they paid my college fees.

0:45:20.3 Jim Lovelady: One day you’ll meet them.

0:45:22.7 Geoffrey Ndivo: Yeah. I know that.

[laughter]

0:45:25.9 Jim Lovelady: Well, this is…

0:45:27.3 Geoffrey Ndivo: I’m looking forward.

[laughter]

0:45:28.6 Jim Lovelady: This is very helpful, the way that you have given… It’s a very nuanced and robust answer to my question. I really appreciate that because one of my questions coming over here was, what can a broken Kenyan church teach a broken American church? Because we are all broken, but the more we admit that, the more we confess that, the more we see that the cross is sufficient, the grace is sufficient, that the cross gets bigger and bigger as we experience those things, and then we get to participate and as the Kingdom of God moves forward, we get to see his renewal and restoration of all things. So thank you so much for hanging out and visiting with me.

0:46:19.6 Geoffrey Ndivo: Well, thank you for having us.

0:46:21.5 Jim Lovelady: Absolutely.

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0:46:29.6 Jim Lovelady: What is your testimony? Whatever your story, whatever you’ve done, however far you’ve strayed from the Father in trying to be a good moral person or in doing whatever you want for your own sake, your testimony is some variation of, “Jesus is the Lord, and he rescued me, and now I follow him wherever he calls me to love other people.” And that’s actually something that you’re invited to experience every day. And Geoffrey and Mary’s story is one of the transformative power of grace in their own lives, daily moving outward into their community. And this is how the story of God’s grace in your life can change a culture to look more like the rule and reign of God’s Kingdom. If this conversation has made you curious about Mentored Sonship and Discipleship Lab, I encourage you to go to our website serge.org/renewal, to explore more. Registration for the Discipleship Lab cohorts open soon, and registration for Mentored Sonship is always open until the slots are full, so don’t wait. And if you want to dip your toe in some of these things, apart from the program or the course, why not start with a book? Try our best-selling book, The Gospel Centered Life. It’s great for summer reading. I also want to share with you a video tour of the Kijabe Hospital where Geoffrey works. One of our missionaries, David Shirk, he showed me around and told me some wonderful stories about God’s Kingdom moving in this hospital and what it could look like in the future. I’ll leave a YouTube link for that in the show notes as well as all the other things, so go check out the show notes. This is the last episode of season three, and so I want to take this time to thank a bunch of people. First, it’s the production team. I want to thank Rachel Risley. She’s the one who puts the website together, so go to serge.org/podcast to check out her work. Ashlie Kodsy is our communication manager and social media guru. Hudson Marsh, I want to thank him for all of his help in writing and proofreading. Grace Chang and Sunny Chi for transcript work and basically keeping me on task so that I meet deadlines. And of course, our executive producer, Anna Madsen. Parker Knaak for his help with video editing, and Evan Mader for helping as my podcast production assistant. And Tim Cornwell for his pastoral advice and collaboration as I work through these things. And a special thanks to Alan Johnson for coming with me to Kenya. And finally, all the guests this season, it was such an honor to sit down with you and hear your stories of how God’s grace is meeting you at the frayed edges of life. Thanks for listening and watching. I appreciate your continued prayers for this podcast and the global ministry of Serge. My deep desire is that this podcast will be a source of encouragement for you, building in you a faith that propels you out on mission in God’s Kingdom. So as you go, blessed to be a blessing, renewed by his Spirit to go on mission in his Kingdom, sent with the Holy Spirit to be your guide, receive this blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to smile down on you. May the Lord be gracious to you and turn his bright eyes to you and give you his peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God, life everlasting, amen.

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